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Scorpion0x17
Posts: 177
Registered: ‎11-24-2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Overclocking S12

Yeah, I know where you coming from, but personally, I'd want to be sure it's still stable after an overclock.

 

Any modern CPU, whether it's an Atom or in a netbook, or not, should handle 100% usage for long enough to establish stability.

 

If it does not, it's faulty.

 

Also modern CPUs shut themselves down when they overheat precisely to protect themselves against damge - if your CPU doesn't do that, again, it's faulty.

 

Now, the difficulty comes when you overclock. As you rightly imply, stock cooling solutions are not designed to handle overclocked systems (even though they often will).

 

You've almost certainly have already invalidated your warranty, so you're going to have a hard time RMAing it anyway.

 

So, as I've said, I personally would want to check an overclock is truely stable.

 

Games get close to doing that, but only Orthos (or a similar more up-to-date tool) will do that properly.

 

But, if you're happy, then go with it - even if it does overheat at some point and shutdown, as I've said it _shouldn't_ do any lasting damage.

 

(of course, if you then persist in using it at the overclocked settings, you've only got yourself to blame when it suddenly stops working one day, or develops a gradual errosion of performance)

Scott
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Frostmint
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎02-01-2010
Location: USA
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Re: Overclocking S12

You don't have to use the ion.ini; the AMCP7.ini worked fine for me, and seemed to be more stable. Here is a guide I posted for overclocking it...upgrading to the latest drivers might help some people.

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slim142
Posts: 42
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
Location: North Miami Beach
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Re: Overclocking S12

[ Edited ]

Scorpion

 

I dont know where you get "invalidated my warranty already". AFAIK there is no way to tell a CPU has been OCed (unless you burn it of course, which must be hard too since system shut downs if motherboard detects overheat like you said).

 

I have had my Q9450 overclocked to 3.6Ghz, took it out after a year and looks exactly like the first day. Now, if anything else fails, let say the northbridge, then sure it will be a PITA to RMA that netbook, you cant do much about it there.

 

I also see it very hard to degrade a CPU when you are not playing with voltages at all. Really hard...

 

I guess the only way to see if this worked will be if I come back in a year or so and let you know how my S12 went through all that time =P

 

Frostmint

 

How ironic, i never thought you would read this post haha. Well first, now that you are here I want to thank you for the research you did and making it public. You dont know how glad I am that I have Mw2 on-the-go :smileyhappy:
For now, the ion.ini works fine, I would prob try the AMCP7 if I had better RAM. I think 2.11Ghz is good enough :smileyhappy:

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Scorpion0x17
Posts: 177
Registered: ‎11-24-2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Overclocking S12

I'm only guessing regarding the warranty - I've not and can't be arsed to read, to be honest. But I suspect, if you do, you'll find using third-party tools to alter setting in the BIOS that you can't alter via the BIOS menu automatically invalidates your warranty, because you are deliberately choosing to make changes to the hardware that may cause damage if you get wrong.

 

Long term degredation is a risk in any cpu, more so in an overclocked system - the 'core temperature' or voltages that system monitors to decide when to shut down only give an indication of the average of the conditions across the whole of the die - it does not tell you the max temperature at any point within that die.

 

So, although the average core temperature may be on the safe side, and the system doesn't shut down, some areas in the die can stray into the danger zone.

 

That will cause degredation.

 

Oh, and, just because the surface of a cpu looks ok, it doesn't mean the important stuff that's layers and layers below that surface is all just as ok.

 

And finally, the likely hood of you having to RMA it because of, to use your example, the northbridge failing, is increased now that you've overclocked - overclocking a cpu doesn't just stress the cpu, it stresses everything to some degree.

 

It's like, if you took out your heart and replaced it with one that 30% more powerful, you'd get really high blood pressure. That kind of increase might even be enough to kill you. That's what you've done to your CPU. Well, I guess it's more like you've hooked it up to a pace maker and turned it up to 13. But hopefully you get my drift.

Scott
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slim142
Posts: 42
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
Location: North Miami Beach
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Re: Overclocking S12

[ Edited ]

Yeah I get what you are saying. But again, a BIOS wont be able to tell if you have used an OCing tool. If I decide to RMA my netbook now (just like it is right now in working conditions), I assure you they wont notice I had it overclocked. the only way to tell is by physically analyzing the system/parts due to failure. I dont know of any other method.

 

About the temps, that is clear. I think if you are into overclocking, you know the differences between core (or die) temps and cpu temps.

And yes, for any overclocker, the one that matters is the core of course. And to be honest, Ive never seen a case of degradation in the 4 years that I have been into overclocking. I even know a guy who had CPUs under extreme VTT, PLL and vcore just to prove degradation was nothing to have fear of. Ironically, his testing came out negative. No degradation after 2 months of torture.

Maybe this isnt long enough for you, but considering that VTT was over 1.45, PLL over 1.60 and vcore over 1.45 (in three different 45nm CPU systems), gives you an idea that if you stay in lower ranges, degradation (if any) wont occur for a long time (again, if any).

 

Again, Im not trying to brainwash you or change your ideas, but to each their own.

 

When I mentioned the CPU surface, I meant the pin side. I meant that I had no signs of my overclock (any mark or visible sign that would prove I had it 30% overclocked). Now the die is a different story. Like you said it might no be visible, but to prove the CPU has degraded, you would have to know first what was the maximum overclock speed before degradation and whats the maximum overclock after it has degraded. Talking about OEM, how would they know this? There is noway they test each netbook/notebook they ship to make sure nobody RMA their system because of degradation. Overclocking is not guaranteed so if your CPU degrades, it was never Intels or the OEM fault. And even in the worse case, you can always bring back your CPU to stock speed.

 

I have never heard of such thing as "degradation in stock speed" if thats what you meant in your second paragraph. At least thats what it sounds to me. Throttling however, I have heard a lot. 

 

 

Yes I know the whole system gets stressed,not just the CPU. The reason why I used the Nb as an example because nforce controller are known to be very hot on desktops so I wouldnt be surprised if the netbook version also gets really hot under a lot of stress. The reason why I dont see necessary to stress a netbook for hours just to prove overclocking estability. At least in my case, if it can handle my games, its good enough for me. Desktops are a different story of course. I like to stress them at least 16 hours.

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Scorpion0x17
Posts: 177
Registered: ‎11-24-2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Overclocking S12


slim142 wrote:

Yeah I get what you are saying. But again, a BIOS wont be able to tell if you have used an OCing tool. If I decide to RMA my netbook now (just like it is right now in working conditions), I assure you they wont notice I had it overclocked. the only way to tell is by physically analyzing the system/parts due to failure. I dont know of any other method.


 

They might notice, it depends how much time/money they want to spend on spotting these things.

 

All an overclocking tool does is alter BIOS settings that you can't otherwise access.

 

The most likely thing to fail in an overclocked system is the CPU, not the BIOS.

 

When a CPU fails, you can't somehow boot into windows and reset the settings - you need a working a CPU to do that.

 

So, if your CPU fails you've got a dead system with a BIOS that still holds your overclock settings.

 

Now, will they check?

 

Well, the easiest way is to have BIOS testing device, you open the system up, pop out the BIOS chip, plug it into your BIOS tester and it tells you all the BIOS settings.

 

That's certainly cheaper than a new CPU...

 

And, if you're putting in a new CPU anyway, there's an even cheaper way, which I'll come to later...

 


slim142 wrote:

About the temps, that is clear. I think if you are into overclocking, you know the differences between core (or die) temps and cpu temps.

And yes, for any overclocker, the one that matters is the core of course. And to be honest, Ive never seen a case of degradation in the 4 years that I have been into overclocking. I even know a guy who had CPUs under extreme VTT, PLL and vcore just to prove degradation was nothing to have fear of. Ironically, his testing came out negative. No degradation after 2 months of torture.

Maybe this isnt long enough for you, but considering that VTT was over 1.45, PLL over 1.60 and vcore over 1.45 (in three different 45nm CPU systems), gives you an idea that if you stay in lower ranges, degradation (if any) wont occur for a long time (again, if any).


 I've heard a million and one "I know a guy" stories. What CPU? What Cooling? Etc.. Etc.. Etc..


slim142 wrote:

Again, Im not trying to brainwash you or change your ideas, but to each their own.


 Likewise.


slim142 wrote:

When I mentioned the CPU surface, I meant the pin side. I meant that I had no signs of my overclock (any mark or visible sign that would prove I had it 30% overclocked). Now the die is a different story. Like you said it might no be visible, but to prove the CPU has degraded, you would have to know first what was the maximum overclock speed before degradation and whats the maximum overclock after it has degraded. Talking about OEM, how would they know this? There is noway they test each netbook/notebook they ship to make sure nobody RMA their system because of degradation. Overclocking is not guaranteed so if your CPU degrades, it was never Intels or the OEM fault. And even in the worse case, you can always bring back your CPU to stock speed.


 You're are correct, in that they'll most like just chuck the CPU and install a new one - it is extremely costly to work what killed a CPU once it's dead.

 

However, as I've said above, the BIOS can be tested, and even if they don't have specific BIOS testers, as soon as they pop in the new CPU they'll then check things like what speed it's running at.

 

They don't ship overclocked, so if it is overclocked, you did it.

 

QED.


slim142 wrote:

I have never heard of such thing as "degradation in stock speed" if thats what you meant in your second paragraph. At least thats what it sounds to me. Throttling however, I have heard a lot. 


 I call it degredation because that's what it is - degredation at the level of the silicon, but yes, it manifests itself as throttling - again that's the CPU doing everything it can to stay alive.


slim142 wrote:

Yes I know the whole system gets stressed,not just the CPU. The reason why I used the Nb as an example because nforce controller are known to be very hot on desktops so I wouldnt be surprised if the netbook version also gets really hot under a lot of stress. The reason why I dont see necessary to stress a netbook for hours just to prove overclocking estability. At least in my case, if it can handle my games, its good enough for me. Desktops are a different story of course. I like to stress them at least 16 hours.


 First thing I did with my S12 was run a 24-hour stress test. Any pre-built PC should be designed to run at 100% cpu usage for a long time without ever shutting down, rebooting, crashing, or bursting in to flames. If it does any of the above then it's faulty.

 

When I overclock I apply those same criteria.

 

But, as you said, each to there own.

Scott
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nagatyh
Posts: 82
Registered: ‎03-30-2009
Location: Cairo, Egypt
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Re: Overclocking S12


Scorpion0x17 wrote:

They might notice, it depends how much time/money they want to spend on spotting these things.

 

All an overclocking tool does is alter BIOS settings that you can't otherwise access.

 

The most likely thing to fail in an overclocked system is the CPU, not the BIOS.

 

When a CPU fails, you can't somehow boot into windows and reset the settings - you need a working a CPU to do that.

 

So, if your CPU fails you've got a dead system with a BIOS that still holds your overclock settings.

 

Now, will they check?

 

Well, the easiest way is to have BIOS testing device, you open the system up, pop out the BIOS chip, plug it into your BIOS tester and it tells you all the BIOS settings.

 

That's certainly cheaper than a new CPU...

 

And, if you're putting in a new CPU anyway, there's an even cheaper way, which I'll come to later...


 

the fsb setting is is reset to default whenever the computer is restarted or turned off.. thats why you need the oc tool to startup with windows..

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Scorpion0x17
Posts: 177
Registered: ‎11-24-2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Overclocking S12


nagatyh wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

They might notice, it depends how much time/money they want to spend on spotting these things.

 

All an overclocking tool does is alter BIOS settings that you can't otherwise access.

 

The most likely thing to fail in an overclocked system is the CPU, not the BIOS.

 

When a CPU fails, you can't somehow boot into windows and reset the settings - you need a working a CPU to do that.

 

So, if your CPU fails you've got a dead system with a BIOS that still holds your overclock settings.

 

Now, will they check?

 

Well, the easiest way is to have BIOS testing device, you open the system up, pop out the BIOS chip, plug it into your BIOS tester and it tells you all the BIOS settings.

 

That's certainly cheaper than a new CPU...

 

And, if you're putting in a new CPU anyway, there's an even cheaper way, which I'll come to later...


 

the fsb setting is is reset to default whenever the computer is restarted or turned off.. thats why you need the oc tool to startup with windows..


Ah, ok, didn't know that. However, that still doesn't stop them from knowing whether you OC'd - all they then have to do is replace the CPU, boot into windows, and hey ho, the OC tool runs (it's possible to bypass user login, so that doesn't help) - only way to stop that is to remove the HDD before RMA. Which, I guess, you might want to do any way.

 

Anyhoo, this RMA sidetrack is kinda moot - the point being that if you can't run at 100% CPU for, say, 24hrs, then your OC is unstable and in the long run is likely to shorten the life of your CPU.

 

I'm not saying any of this to suggest that people don't overclock, rather so that any naive user coming here knows the pottential risks of doing so, and how to best mitigate those risks.

Scott
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slim142
Posts: 42
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
Location: North Miami Beach
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Re: Overclocking S12

[ Edited ]

 

Like mentioned before, software overclocking programs cannot make your BIOS boot at overclocked settings. So the pop a new cpu to see the settings just wont work

What will work are hypothesis, why did the cpu fry? Why did the Nb fry? What caused this and that?

And thats where burned cpus/nbs/vrms come into one conclusion, overclock (and also manufacturer problems, but its unlikely when it happens to a single person).

 

About the "story". You have your forums where you discuss overclocking/technology topics. You know who are the ones that actually review products and are official testers. Im not the kind of guy you buy with a single post and no background history.

If it helps... my knowledge comes from XtremeSystems.org and members like Vapor, Fugger, Dinos22 and others are known to be official hardware testers and reviewers. You might have heard of them.

 

As far as I know, throtling does not happen because of degradation.

AFAIK, throtling happens when the CPU cannot longer sustain the applied speed because of temperature, thus lowering its clock speed. (what happened with the Prescot 500 series CPUs)

Degradation causes your CPU to no longer be able to stay stable at the overclocked speed thus causing freezes, crashes, BSoDs etc. Making you lower the FSB/Clock speed.

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Scorpion0x17
Posts: 177
Registered: ‎11-24-2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Overclocking S12

Why are you getting all pissy about this?

 

My opinion differs to yours.

 

Deal with it.

 

Oh and, waiving 'qualifications' around on the internet is pointless, but, seeing as you're so interested, and just for your information, I've been working with computers for about 15years, on and off, ever since graduating from university with a B.Eng(hons) (that's a type of degree, btw) in Software Engineering for Real-Time Systems (which, incidentally, covered both hardware and software engineering, as well as some mechanical engineering). I've probably forgotten more than you know about both analogue and digital electronics (including what goes on in the silicon).

Scott