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f1ip
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎04-21-2008
Location: Texas
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries


jkellen wrote:

Same issue with the R61, but my battery, 42T4544, didn't make the list of crappy batteries.  My power manager shows a first used date of 1988-01.  How many time do you think this battery has been repackaged.


Same here, have the same R61 and same battery, 42T4544
can only carry 3% charge, basically it dies in about a couple minutes at 100% charge.

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uflash
Posts: 20
Registered: ‎05-28-2009
Location: 91355
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

Battery experiment (FINAL) !!

 

The data below proves to a high level of certainty that the battery issue affecting all of us has nothing to do with the cells! Bad cell don't hold charge, and after a week these babies are still looking good from their initial charge. Since I can't get anything from Lenovo, Im taking my data and comments to the next level. A nice letter to . . . (sorry for Lenovo is a bad world to talk about this institution). Thank you and this probably will be the end of me on this forum, unless somebody has question about the experiment.

 

Friday 8, 2010

Batt C: 3.533V

Batt G: 3.637V

 

Monday 11, 2010

Batt C: 3.511V

Batt G: 3.599V

 

Friday 15, 2010

Batt C: 3.506V

Batt G: 3.588V

Mark_Lenovo
Posts: 7,892
Topics: 411
Kudos: 1,325
Solutions: 285
Registered: ‎11-19-2007
Location: RTP, North Carolina

Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

[ Edited ]

Oldvermonter,

 

I've seen this a couple times and don't have an answer as to why some new batteries are not recognized.  I've gotten around it several times by taking out the battery and AC, then pressing and holding the power button several times to drain capacitance.  Then re-inserting the battery.  I'll see what else is known... Thanks!

 

uflash,

 

Very interesting investigation.   The battery protection circuit can open for a number of reasons, cell imbalance being one of them.  You have demonstrated that there is cell imbalance (differing charge / voltage levels) amongst the cells in your pack.  You seem to have discovered possibly why your particular pack triggered it's protection circuit leading to it being disconnected and displaying the irrepairable battery message.

 

This seems like it's working as designed to me.   I think your argument is that because they can be independently charged and will hold a charge that these cells are fine.   It seems to me that one would need to consider how the cells function compared to one another, rather than testing them independently and concluding that they are good.  In your first test you noted C and G cells were under volted.  Why?  Perhaps because they were charging at a slower rate than the other cells in the pack.  They might also discharge faster than the others.  With each charge / discharge cycle, I would postulate that the differences increased.  These conditions would be seen as anomolous, and beyond a certain threshold, a sign of trouble, triggering the protection circuit.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

____________________________________________

ThinkPads: S30, T43, X60t, X1, W700ds, IdeaPad Y710, IdeaCentre: A300, IdeaPad K1
Mark Hopkins
Program Manager, Lenovo Social Media (Services)
www.twitter.com/lenovoforums
www.facebook.com/lenovo

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uflash
Posts: 20
Registered: ‎05-28-2009
Location: 91355
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

Mark,

 

Thank you for taking the time to at least comment into our issues. If you read my comments is very clear that w/o having proper schematics I cannot determine the source of the failure for the battery pack (the information at hand can only take me so far). But your story about cell imbalances to a certain degree should be corrected by  the battery charging circuitry (a good design will do). Its difficult to determine what exactly failed, but the fact the batteries hold charge very well gives the battery a 25% probability of source of failure vs. 75% hardware/software issue. Hence the question that ALL being asking about upgrading "Power Management" and BIOS and within days getting the failures.

 

The idea here is to question LENOVO in regards of the battery that did get recalled vs. the ones with the same error message that did not! That's being my question from day 1. I cannot understand why our batteries are not part of the recall. Neither going from 1.5 hr of battery operation to DEAD overnight. So, I'm still waiting for good rational explanation about these two observations.

 

Thank you,

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oldVermonter
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎01-06-2010
Location: Norwich, Vermont, USA
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

Thank you, Mark, for responding.  When I shut down tonight, I will re-try the process you suggest.  However, I have since discovered that even though the Power Manager declared my "old" battery dead - and then "not installed" - , it still reads 12.46 volts just as it did when I set it aside four days ago.

    Since the R60 runs just fine on either the old battery or the new one, and appears to charge each of them when connected to AC, I am inclined to suspect the Power Manager's interface to the hardware, rather than the hardware itself.

    I also wonder if a recent online Thinkpad software "update" may have introduced new bugs, or raised old ones from the dead.   My suspicions (of resurrected bugs) are heightened by the fact that an old error message, "This instance of cssauth.exe could not start due to an authorization error" has resumed appearing whenever the machine is rebooted.   It's associated with access to the secure-storage partition; hadn't seen it for many months until this new year of 2010.

Irv (the old Vermonter)

 

Mark_Lenovo
Posts: 7,892
Topics: 411
Kudos: 1,325
Solutions: 285
Registered: ‎11-19-2007
Location: RTP, North Carolina

Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

OldVermonter,

 

Hmm - well given your last points I doubt my suggestion is going to help you.  I'll ask about this next week and might want to take a look at your old battery.

 

uflash,

 

After my last posting, I felt I might have sounded a bit brusque and I do appreciate you experimentation in taking apart the pack and reporting your results.   I'm honestly not sure what one might say to provide a satisfying answer as to why your battery can fail this way and not be covered while others are.   Let me try it this way based on my understanding of the situation....

 

Any of the battery packs can fail for a variety of reasons - many of the underlying reasons can produce the common outward systems when the protection circuit triggers.   If one looks at the total field population of batteries   (which runs into millions of units) and were to cut the data by part number and plot out failure in ppm by month of life, I suspect there would be some normal, randomized distributions.  Some will fail earlier than others.  Lenovo provides a 1 year warranty to provide competitive coverage (in line with other OEMs in the industry) which allows us to keep warranty costs in line, and allows us to deliver a certain level of system design and technology at a given price target.   In cases where we have seen significantly abnormal failure distributions, we have set up some of these extended service programs that allowed replacement of qualifying batteries outside the warranty period.   While not open ended, and are designed to cover the majority, but not all outliers.

 

As the price of systems are continuing to decline, the battery is an increasingly expensive component as a percentage of the system.   As such, to absorb the costs associated with broader and more lenient policies, something else would have to be sacrificed - systems would cost more (which if Lenovo acted alone, would quickly make us non-competitive for future sales) or require more cost trade offs in the business to offset the increased warranty costs - perhaps a reduction in service levels some other way to balance the budget.  None of these seem appealing.  I don't think OEM's can just push the problem back on the cell suppliers either - extending their warranty liability would most likely increase the cost of the cells to the OEM which would make the batteries and the systems more expensive overall. 

 

Personally, I thought a good solution might be in the form of a pro-rated battery warranty.  This is the way that car battery warranties are handled, and they often come with 72 month (pro-rated) warranties.   With a pro-rated warranty, there is free replacement for the first year, business as usual, and then the customer would pay on a sliding scale, that increases with each month.   Even near the end of the period, the portion paid by the customer would be less than the cost of a new battery, so there would be equity.   Given the costs to stock parts, and the rate of technological change, I don't know that 72 months would make sense for computers, but possibly 36 or 48 months.  

 

Mark

 

____________________________________________

ThinkPads: S30, T43, X60t, X1, W700ds, IdeaPad Y710, IdeaCentre: A300, IdeaPad K1
Mark Hopkins
Program Manager, Lenovo Social Media (Services)
www.twitter.com/lenovoforums
www.facebook.com/lenovo

English English Community      Deutsche Deutsche Community      Español Comunidad en Español

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oldVermonter
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎01-06-2010
Location: Norwich, Vermont, USA
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

Hello Mark,

   Three weeks back, you replied to my post as follows:

>OldVermonter,

 

>Hmm - well given your last points I doubt my suggestion is going to help you.  I'll ask about this next week and might >want to take a look at your old battery.

 

 (This is in reference to the fact that the Lenovo Power Manager software first declared my old 6-cell battery dead, then decided that "no battery is installed."  Three weeks after shelving the old one (replacing it with a new 9-cell), the old battery still reads 12.36.  Meanwhile, Power Manager  still claims that "no battery is installed", even though the "Power Meter" does "see" the new battery and correctly reads what kind it is.)

 

     I'm concerned that with Power Manager "out to lunch",  the recommended partial discharge before recharging cycles only get implemented if I remember to do it manually.  Not to mention the fact that I preferred the Power Mgr's taskbar "charge meter" to Power Meter's.

What's DOS?
maryfil21
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎02-07-2010
Location: Cyprus
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

Hi I have the same problem with the battery. My laptop is R61 and the part number of the battery is  42T5233.  The problem began when while I was working I didnt recognize the the battery was low and the laptop turn off. When I turn on the AC power on the computer,  a message from the Lenovo Message Centre appear saying that there was a battery error. When I open Power Manager in the Battery task there was a message saying that "The battery has failed due to normal wear. The battery can not be charged. Replace the battery".

 

I have run the Battery Diagnostic Tool and it say that my battery part number is noT one of the listed. What can I do??

Do i  have security problem with  my laptop if I run it with Ac power or I have to replace my Battery.

 

Why this happen ??

 

Thank you

Maria

 

 

What's DOS?
philwill2519
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎02-18-2010
Location: Quebec
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

[ Edited ]

The battery icon on my R60 laptop began flashing orange yesterday.  The laptop will work when plugged on the wall with the charger, but if unplugged, it will stop running immediately.  I have tried removing and reinstalling the battery, always the same problem.

The model is 9456-ESF S/N LV-xxxxx 06/11   Battery  pack is FRU P/N 92P1137

I was able to trace recall info indicating that the 92P1137 was affected by a recall

Please confirm

 

Moderator Note; s/n edited for members own protection


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Al-Andaluz
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎02-24-2010
Location: Germany
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Re: NEW Battery Tip - Applicable to some T, X, R ThinkPad models and batteries

Hola!

I'm joining the "FRU 42t4504" -Club.

The error acute after 19 months of use, now total 250 cycles. My error appeared few days ago( 51% of original capacity).

Now the battery has 53 % of capacity  after Battery recalibration with the PowerManager

 

My laptop information are as follows:

Laptop Model: R61

Model Type: 8932-G6G

Battery Manufacturer's name: Sanyo

FRU part number: 42T4504