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802.11n
ZipZap
Posts: 240
Registered: ‎09-19-2011
Location: USA
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

Hi, Chat,

 

     The good news is that if you get the W520 you can find a benchmark that causes it too to fail. Then you can complain here ad nauseum about that. If you like, I'll write a program for you that melts your system board.

 

     It's all in good fun, so don't get mad at me!  :smileyvery-happy:

 

  

                                                                     ZZ

Token Ring
Chatbox
Posts: 487
Registered: ‎11-04-2010
Location: Sydney
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

[ Edited ]

LoL...

 

I'm really not looking for an upgrade.  And I don't even want a system replacement.

 

I don't even have a goal/target of making a system unstable.

 

The goal was to determine whether system was stable from its own heat.

 

I've been doing similar tests on all my personal systems (desktops and laptops), and have been a TP user since 2002.  First got a used T22 (a student at the time), then went to a new T41p, then T60, T400, X200 and now W510.  W510 is really the one that's giving me issues.  Granted, the other TPs did not have dedicated graphics chipset, but the goal never changed.  And that is, "to determine whether system was stable from its own heat."

Broadband 3G
JDay
Posts: 999
Registered: ‎01-06-2011
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?


Chatbox wrote:

LoL...

 

I'm really not looking for an upgrade.  And I don't even want a system replacement.

 

I don't even have a goal/target of making a system unstable.

 

The goal was to determine whether system was stable from its own heat.

 

I've been doing similar tests on all my personal systems (desktops and laptops), and have been a TP user since 2002.  First got a used T22 (a student at the time), then went to a new T41p, then T60, T400, X200 and now W510.  W510 is really the one that's giving me issues.  Granted, the other TPs did not have dedicated graphics chipset, but the goal never changed.  And that is, "to determine whether system was stable from its own heat."


You are putting the system through a torture test that causes it to reach operating temperatures that it never would reach during real world use and you are surprised that it goes into thermal protection mode and shuts down? It's a laptop, with components crammed into close proximity, not a tower with plenty of airflow. The system is running the way it was designed.

Token Ring
Chatbox
Posts: 487
Registered: ‎11-04-2010
Location: Sydney
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

[ Edited ]

I rest my case if your response is that you find it acceptable when the following combination has created this:

1. It's a laptop and not a tower.

2. No...don't stress test the components.

 

And therefore, expect less.

 

Haha...so much for a portable "workstation".

 

I better tell Lenovo that, sorry, my expectation is at such a low-tolerance level that your top of the line workstation can't fulfill?

 

In which case, it looks to me that Lenovo is still only...at best, building prosumer products.  Not ready for enterprise.

 

Me to the laptop:  Hey, can you calculate this?

Laptop: Sure.  Here you go.

Me to the laptop: Again.

Laptop: Here you go again.

Me to the laptop: Again.

Laptop: Here you go again.

Me to the laptop: Again.

Laptop: Nah, can't be arsed.  Need to go for a break.

 

0_o Woot?

lead_org
Posts: 20,895
Topics: 128
Kudos: 1,249
Solutions: 1,341
Registered: ‎12-19-2008
Location: Australia, Melbourne
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

But i doubt an enterprise would perform Furmark on their machine all day, just for the sake of testing their laptop.

If the enterprise needs to stress their laptop all day long, then there is obviously a workstation desktop for such purposes.

Conversely speaking can any of the competitor's business laptop with the same hardware perform better then ThinkPad W520 under the same condition?

Just like you are not going to take a Ferrari to race at its maximum speed all day long, and complain that it is inadquate for the purpose.
Regards,

Jin Li

May this year, be the year of 'DO'!

I am a volunteer, and not a paid staff of Lenovo or Microsoft
Punch Card
denial
Posts: 49
Registered: ‎07-07-2011
Location: Sweden
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

The problem is by far not only the Furmark.

 

When i'm playing Modern Warfare 3 i have to disable intel turbo boost and put the fan to max and even then sometimes the gpu throttles during the game. When i don't disable turbo, it throttles multiple times repeatedly during the game (=unplayable, unacceptable). [ambient temperature ~22 oC now]

 

And the most important to say is that one game round lasts max. 10 (TEN) minutes. After that it goes to menu for some minute with no gpu load.

 

So the (my only?) W520, unfortunately, is unable to run without thermal throttling issues even 10 minutes continuously, and this is only with gpu fully utilized (cpu about one core only).

 

i disabled also hyperthreading, but this seems to have no effect (to the temperature) at all.

 

i found something like this

http://www.cmstorm.com/en/products/accessories/sf19usb3/

but 100 eur is not cheap ... and i have no guarantee it will cool enough.

 

anyone using some notebook cooler for his w520 which can recommend?

 

i7-2820qm, q2000

 

Token Ring
Chatbox
Posts: 487
Registered: ‎11-04-2010
Location: Sydney
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

[ Edited ]

This doesn't require all day for the issue to occur.  Merely 8 minutes will do.

 

Agree, an enterprise will likely not use Furmark to test.  This, though, is not conclusive to say the issue can, or cannot be reproduced with load from other applications.  The point is that it can, and did occur, and is reproducible.

 

Competitor's business laptop may or may not perform better, but that should not be justification for this issue's acceptability.

 

Ferrari, all day long, no you would not.  Agree.  But that's because a vehicle, has tires, fuels, break pads as consumables / wearable parts.  For a laptop, these are harddrives, optical drive, cooling fan, LED backlight, battery and keyboard.  Take these out of the equation, then we have engine, radiator grill, radiator fan, exhaust, chassis...etc.  These more or less equates to CPU/GPU (and VRAM), heatsink & fan, air in / out tunnels, systemboard / chassis.  And what we have here is insufficient cooling causing system shutdown within 8 minutes of full CPU (5 minutes, 6 threads warm up, and continue with, still, 6 threads) and GPU load (starts after 5 minutes).  Try watching multi-sections of 8 minutes F1 grandprix and motoGP.

 

It basically created a scenario where the heatsink was already at a high temperature (by the CPU), which then affected the cooling ability for the GPU.  The flaud in the design here is that, while independent full GPU load and full CPU load is not an issue, the efficiency of the cooling solution of one component (CPU or GPU), is hughly affected by the existing load state of the other component (CPU or GPU).  Should the cooling solution be capable of cooling both components while at full load such that the equilibrium temperature is within the operational condition of all the components, then we wouldn't have this issue.  Note that, full load in this case, is around 95 to 99%, due to process priority is not set to real-time, and system background processes are executing (and these processes' algorithms create relately a lot less heat).

 

Let's also not forget the aftereffect of this type of thermal shutdown.  The GPU and VRAM area of the systemboard will have dark spots.  These are PCB coating being partially melted.  And the route course, insufficient cooling, or largely variable cooling efficiency due to point-in-time components load state.

 

P.S. My W510 isn't able to survive a FarCry 2 demo play...but that's more like 20 minutes, depending on graphics (map, texture) complexity and other AI at the map.

 

P.P.S.  In fact, you see tires manufacturers try to make the tires last longer, before a tire burst, or lower the rate of wear, and also producing tires that can handle high temperature without melting...  Temperature stabiltiy and maintaining product functional condition has always been a design criteria for many physical products.

Token Ring
mjdl
Posts: 157
Registered: ‎06-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

[ Edited ]

At the risk of being thrown out of this thread for ignorant remarks, I wonder if, at the time that the W500/510 were being specced & designed, intensive non-graphic CUDA computations were even considered a part of the usual application mix for these kinds of machines. Sure, the base graphics drivers driven by CAD or other graphics programs obviously use the GPU, but not in the kind of all-out way that specialized, drawn-out CUDA-resident computations will use it. And then there are the thermal design constraints of the notebook form factor.

Can you really expect CUDA on a notebook to work like specialized rendering or computational hardware? I'd even argue that it simply shouldn't be a part of a reliable notebook's design--too many constraints.

Token Ring
Chatbox
Posts: 487
Registered: ‎11-04-2010
Location: Sydney
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

[ Edited ]

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_fx_880_m_us.html

 

..."non-graphic CUDA computation"... really?  Going to be time consuming on making that distinction.

 http://developer.download.nvidia.com/compute/DevZone/docs/html/C/doc/CUDA_Toolkit_Reference_Manual.p...

 

A product is either CUDA capable, or it's not.  Would you accept buying a CPU that's capable of floating point calculation...but Lenovo then tell you...no, don't compute floating points, it's going to warm up the CPU.

 

When a chip (component) is certified and rated with specific capabilities and power consumption, and other "working conditions", it's the hardware designer / manufacture to ensure the product, when integrated with the components, will function together within those limits.  So, if the GPU is specified to be capable of producing x amount of heat under load, then Lenovo has to come up with the design that's capable of getting rid of that heat, and maintain component's (and overall system) functionality.  ...Unless nVidia is saying the GPU can only handle a burst amount of performance within x amount of time...then it has to rest.  hahahaha

 

Maybe I don't understand where some people are coming from...but I just don't understand the whole mindset of "but it's not designed for that"...when it's capable of that.  It's engineering (good engineering, at least.).  If it's capable, then it was designed for.  Unless we're talking about the whacked out reasoning of "It's not a bug, it's a feature".  When then implies CUDA capability was not a designed functionality.

 

What were some people even thinking when they say, "it's a business laptop, not a gaming system".   Would someone come and tell me "It's a portable system, don't use it at the office?".

Bit Torrent
ThorsHammer
Posts: 2,400
Registered: ‎04-08-2011
Location: USA
0

Re: Can your laptop survive Furmark?

This is why I always recommend that people need to test a new machine against their personal requirements.

 

If you need a machine that can encodes HD video at high bit rates for at least three hours while you are out on the road, and it fails that test when you receive the machine, return the machine.

 

If you need it to model some advanced simulation and run over night, but it doesn't do that, return the machine.

 

The key is to test all the ports, software, and integration in the first two weeks you have the machine.  This isn't a trivial matter for some tests.  It behoves you to find out long before the return period is up.  If you discover it doesn't meet your requirements after, you have little recourse other than selling it.