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Amscram
Posts: 36
Registered: ‎06-20-2011
Location: United States
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

@kungfuchicken

I own more than one x220t and have used four total since they have been released. Each one, despite being purchased at different times and in different regions, has exhibited the same level of bad image persistence and light bleeding.

Unfortunately, you are definitely not alone in the problems you are having with Lenovo's "premuim" IPS panel. I can see color too, not simply shapes and lines. It occurs for me between 5-10 minutes of use and takes 15-25 minutes to vanish.

How long does it take for you to start seeing the image persistence?
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JNavas
Posts: 565
Registered: ‎08-07-2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

[ Edited ]

Puppy wrote:

kungfuchicken wrote:

    I've been following the post about the ghosting issue and while checking to see if I have it (yes) I've noticed that when switching from a darker color, white text like the title bar or subtitles have a glow and lighter colored space like windows appear darker.


 

Interesting, it is typical sign of too strong overdrive level applied to the panel (http://www.behardware.com/articles/561-1/technical-aspects-lcds-overdrive-contrast-and-viewing-angle... ). Again, it would also explain the excessive image retention. Still wondering whether Lenovo can control overdrive level via BIOS.


"I saw it on the Internet so it must be true." :smileywink:

Except it's not -- that's a hobby website, not an authoritative source.

There's no real evidence here of what is actually causing image persistence.

Hope that helps,
John
ThinkPad T420s [ i7-2640M CPU | 8GB RAM | 1TB SSD | Bay Battery | BT | Webcam | FR | Win7Pro64 ]
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kungfuchicken
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎06-18-2011
Location: canada
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

The image persistence I'd say about 15 mins? I noticed it first when I left the monitor on while locked and I logged back in the outline of the logon picture and textbox was visible. The glowing/darkening happens right after something dark is displayed and gradually disappears after several seconds.

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Alexo
Posts: 98
Registered: ‎06-19-2011
Location: Canada
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen


Puppy wrote:

Alexo wrote:

I respectfully repeat my suggestion regarding contacting LG.Display and asking them:

(1) whether the image retention issue is a "feature" of that panel, and

(2) whether the image retention issue is a "feature" of all of their IPS panels.

 


That wouldn't be good questions. The answer for 1 is 'yes', for 2 is also 'yes' because it is feature of all LCD panels regardless of its technology ( http://www.behardware.com/articles/615-1/lcds-with-persistent-images.html ). The important part is in what exact conditions it happens. Typically after lets say 20 hours of displaying a static image you can experience some kind of image retention. But here we are talking about very extreme case when it happens after 20 minutes that it can not be considered as "feature" but "fault".


And that's the reason that I posted the question here for public debate...

 

That said, the phrasing "the image retention issue" implicitly refers to the short time it takes on the panel used in the x220 premium display.

 

For reference, I offer the following quote from the article you linked to:

"However, to put the danger in perspective, we displayed a fixed image on several TN, IPS, and VA monitors including the ViewSonic VX922 (probably the strongest overdrive) and after 48H without a screensaver, changing anything or switching off, the display remained impeccable."

 

Please contrast an "impeccable" display after 48 hours of showing a static image with the visible ghosting on the x220 "premium" display after 20 minutes.

 

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Alexo
Posts: 98
Registered: ‎06-19-2011
Location: Canada
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen


JNavas wrote:

 

"I saw it on the Internet so it must be true." :smileywink:

Except it's not -- that's a hobby website, not an authoritative source.

There's no real evidence here of what is actually causing image persistence.


John, are you the same John Navas of  the "Navas Group"?

 

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sebgus
Posts: 25
Registered: ‎08-04-2011
Location: Sweden
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

[ Edited ]

kungfuchicken wrote:

The image persistence I'd say about 15 mins? I noticed it first when I left the monitor on while locked and I logged back in the outline of the logon picture and textbox was visible. The glowing/darkening happens right after something dark is displayed and gradually disappears after several seconds.


Is it this you experience? Have HD enabled!

 

http://vimeo.com/27309829

 

It's hard to capture a good video of it (at least with my camera), it is quite irritating :smileysad:. The edges/borders are quite faint and then they become more clear after a couple of seconds (and no it's not the cameras AF or anything like that).

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Alexo
Posts: 98
Registered: ‎06-19-2011
Location: Canada
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

[ Edited ]

Well, I tried to raise awarness on the Notebook Review forum.  See post #98 and later in this thread:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo-ibm/574818-why-should-i-get-x220-plus-some-other-questions.ht...

... and got picked upon for not posting first-hand experience.

 

Therefore, I ask those that do have the problem to post there.  As a bonus, you get to have a dicussion with Mark, who seems to be active in that thread lately.

 

Moderator note; subject edited

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jyeah
Posts: 161
Registered: ‎12-06-2010
Location: United States

Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

[ Edited ]

I think the issue at hand right now is that people who received a X220/T with the image persistence effect on their monitor have reasons to believe that their monitor panel is defective but Lenovo's response was that their monitor is behaving "normally" or as expected due to characteristics behind the IPS display technology.

 

From what I know about display technology as an electrical engineer here at UCLA (and apparently other E.E. P.h.D candidates in the lab I work at that deal with microscopy/optics share their same opinion with me on this), I personally do not believe the monitor panels are behaving normally unless there was a specific design/manufacturing flaw that makes it normal or common with these specific IPS panels.

A more detailed technical response from Lenovo would be much appreciated (it would be great if it can be in the form of an attachment in addition to the official tip, so people who don't have the technical background would not be confused by it) instead of the ambiguous E-field diagrams in their official tip. As far as I can tell, those E-field diagrams do not explain why the image persistence effect on these specific IPS panels occur so fast or that it's normal, it merely demonstrates that it is more common for such a problem/behavior to exist in a IPS panel than a TN panel, but then again, a lot of IPS monitors do not exhibit the same behavior even if they use the same IPS principles illustrated by Lenovo's diagram in that tip. They did not even define what an extended period of time is, how much more ambiguous can it be? I can tell you for a fact now, the shortest time required for the image persistence to appear that I have observed is 13 minutes and 23 seconds. As it can be deceiving to other users who might think the effect only occurs after an hour or more of a stationary picture (and most people don't leave their screens on for more than a hour like that, so they can care less about it).

I know I will be comparing apples with oranges, but I have used many different IPS panels (think 8+ panels, excluding X220's) over the years for graphic/CAD design and other imaging applications such as analyzing microscopic images. I have only seen image persistence effect on perhaps 1 of them (well including the 2 X220 Tablets that I have, 3 of them), and the image persistence on that monitor wasn't even apparent unless it has been on a full hour of a stationary image.

Obviously, the IPS technology is not identical, but this behavior of image persistence that occurs in <20 minutes should not even be considered normal.

 

The official tip to correct for the problem shows:
Image persistence can be prevented by using screen savers and other power management tools to turn off LCD display when the screen is inactive. However, even though I am using the monitor and the image is not inactive only just parts of the monitor image remains stationary this problem still exhibits itself and screen savers do not kick in when you're using the computer.

 

I did own two X220 Tablets (I returned one) and at the time, both Tablets exhibited the image persistence effect, one was obviously worse than the other. It was especially noticeable when I used it for graphic design/CAD or even just taking notes in class (since I would be on the same page of notes until the page was filled and when I move down the page, there would be the persistent image on top of the white page background).

I think it's fair to say that though the sample size of 8+ IPS panels that I have used is not close to the thousands of panels LG produces in a day, but it is still a decent amount of panels to have used for an extended period of time for an average person to develop the intuition that the image persistence effect is rare and not normal.

 

Will Lenovo do anything else about this issue? Since the tip does not really resolve the real issue at hand.

802.11n
JNavas
Posts: 565
Registered: ‎08-07-2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

[ Edited ]

Alexo wrote:
"However, to put the danger in perspective, we displayed a fixed image on several TN, IPS, and VA monitors including the ViewSonic VX922 (probably the strongest overdrive) and after 48H without a screensaver, changing anything or switching off, the display remained impeccable."

Please contrast an "impeccable" display after 48 hours of showing a static image with the visible ghosting on the x220 "premium" display after 20 minutes.


The VX922 is a desktop display. Comparing it to a notebook display is apples to oranges.

Your case would be much more persuasive with hard data on comparable notebook IPS displays.

Hope that helps,
John
ThinkPad T420s [ i7-2640M CPU | 8GB RAM | 1TB SSD | Bay Battery | BT | Webcam | FR | Win7Pro64 ]
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Amphibulus
Posts: 75
Registered: ‎07-22-2011
Location: Canada
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Re: Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen

Jyeah,

 

Really informative post. I have been finally able to reproduce it on my X220 IPS screen, but it's so lite, that under regular usage I would have never notice it. I have to let the screen "burn" for a while with vivid color and then but the background black to see it when I look really close at it.

 

For others here it looks be a really serious issue. I don't understand this inconsistance in the result if they all use the same technology (since they are basically all made by the same provider).

ThinkPad X220, I7 2620M, 8GB RAM, Intel 320 160GB SSD, IPS screen, USB 3.0, Bluethoot, Cam, Win 7 pro 64, BIOS: 1.17, Model: 4286-CTO, Fabrication date: 07/11