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19 Posts

12-07-2012

Canada

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So no Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 Plus Bluetooth for us

2013-07-02, 15:36 PM

801.11ac devices (network cards, USB adapters and routers etc.) are becoming increasingly available. I already have an Asus RT-AC66U router, ready to go.

 

OOPS :smileymad:

 

Of course, unless I get an external USB adapter, I won't be able to use the ac capability of my router with my Thinkpad. I can't use an 802.11ac card, e.g., Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 Plus Bluetooth, in my Thinkpad because of the whitelist issue. It has already been successfully retrofitted to other laptops.

 

As I understand it the same antennas can be used. Drivers apparently still need some work.

 

 

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19 Posts

12-07-2012

Canada

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Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-02, 16:02 PM

Some have suggested that Lenovo white lists are an (ovezealous?) interprataion of FCC rules. Others have suggest that these white lists are money grabs.

 

As has also already been mentioned, FCC regulations are irrelevant in non-U.S. markets, i.e., Canada, Europe, other parts of the world, which are not governed by FCC rules and in which Lenovo is required to meet local rules and laws, not the FCC's. In Canada for example, it is the federal Department of Communication whose rules have to be met.

 

There are many consumer issues, e.g., DVD region coding & cell phone unlocking, that are the subject of laws, regulations and guidelines. What is legal, or otherwise required in some jurisdictions, may be illegal, or otherwise disallowed, in others.

 

Does anyone know if the practice of white listing is illegal, or otherwise not allowed, in any jurisdiction, possibly the EU which seems to be ahead of us in such matters?

 

I understand that Lenovo's white lists for a particular product may vary by market. Are there any markets where Lenovo products white listed in other markets are sold without the white lists? Has anyone ever heard of official Lenovo BIOS updates providing updated (expanded) white lists or removing white lists altogether?

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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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Re: So no Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 Plus Bluetooth for us

2013-07-02, 16:19 PM

WOW are you reading any of these posts MOD?

 

Lenovo ARE doing a fantastic job of driving away US, Canadian & European customers all by themselves.... US & Canada Population about 350 million... Europe about 750 million (plus all the different languages) and then China 1.3 Billion! (one language) Like they even care!!??

 

The reason no-one here can get hold of anyone is because there isn't anyone to speak to! They ship to these countries, but they couldn't care less about any of our problems. I've never had to contact Lenovo or IBM prior to this point, as I have either fixed hardware issues myself (more just a replacement of parts) or bought a new, but this is not wear and tear. This is Lenovo purposely controlling whether my laptop can use 5Ghz or .ac networks and effectively shortening the productivity lifespan of my machine?? 

 

I have purchased an Intel N6205 (PD962205ANHU) and N6300 (PD9633ANHU) this week both with the generic FCC ID that Lenovo use and for anyone else thinking it maybe something to do with FCC rules - think again, neither worked in my L412 or Y580.

 

And the real kicker! I bought a N6300 before finding this post, with (Dell) FCC ID: E2k633ANH, which obviously didn't work in my Laptops, BUT! It does work perfectly fine in my girlfriends 6 year old Dell Inspiron 1525. I MEAN REALLY!!

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19 Posts

12-07-2012

Canada

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  • Message 44 of 253

Re: So no Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 Plus Bluetooth for us

2013-07-02, 17:02 PM

The worst part about all this is that there is absolutely no warning to a prospective purchaser. That makes this an unacceptable business practice, in my book. [Am I allowed to say that?]

 

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31 Posts

05-22-2013

Norway

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Re: So no Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 Plus Bluetooth for us

2013-07-02, 20:51 PM
Probably not. It seems that it isn`t allowed to say anything that might enlighten potential buyers about why they perhaps should choose something other than Lenovo.

Asus, Acer and Samsung isn`t using whitelists, and they don`t seem to be in any trouble with fcc or anything else. That`s just a stupid excuse.

Lenovo is in no way responsible for what the buyers installs on their computers, whether it`s software or hardware. Lenovo is only responsible in regards to the hardware Lenovo initially puts into the pc`s, and Lenovo is in no way obligated to do anything to prevent buyers to install any kind of hardware, whether it`s FCC-approved or not. That`s totally irrelevant.
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7651 Posts

11-24-2007

USA

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Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-02, 23:59 PM

Kritiker wrote:

 


Has anyone ever heard of official Lenovo BIOS updates providing updated (expanded) white lists or removing white lists altogether?


No.

 

This is the very same approach that was introduced by IBM over a decade ago.

 

Honestly, there are only two options if you already own a ThinkPad:

 

a) Use a whitelisted card

 

b) Flash a modded third-party BIOS if one is available for your machine.

 

I don't work for Lenovo and can't comment with any real weight on what their policies will be in the future, but I don't expect any changes in regards to the whitelisting of the WLAN and WWAN cards.

Cheers,

George




In daily use: R60F, R500F, T61, T410

Collecting dust: T60

Enjoying retirement: A31p, T42p,

Non-ThinkPads: Panasonic CF-31 & CF-52, HP 8760W




Starting Thursday, 08/14/2014 I'll be away from the forums until further notice. Please do NOT send private messages since I won't be able to read them. Thank you.
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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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  • Message 47 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-03, 10:30 AM

It would just be nice to know why and for them to give a real clear notice when purchasing. If when I bought my Y580 last year; the user guide stated that I would not be able to upgrade the existing wireless card other than the 4 specific whitelisted cards - this would have been going straight back and I would have been searching for either another model that doesn't have this or another manufacturer.

 

It's like buying a Sony TV and when you plug in a DVD player it saying "Remove this device" and telling me I can only use Sony DVD players. People would lose their dam minds over that. So how is it Lenovo are effectively allowed to do the same with no pre-warning?? MiniPCI is an industry standard just as HDMI is, it's not like say Apple and they've used their own proprietary connector.  In all fairness I don't even think Apple do this??

 

The only explanation that I can think of, is that they have had some sort of deal with the card manufacturers to lock these cards, maybe for a cheaper bulk buy price? or they realise that wireless is becoming key to laptop and phone sales and are looking to use wireless speed progressions to force upgrades?

 

Either way I feel like surely my consumer rights have been impinged somewhere. Not to mention a mid-market 6 year old Dell, that will take an .ac network card, can wirelessly outperform my 6 month old £850 flagship Lenovo laptop.

 

That's pathetic!       

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7651 Posts

11-24-2007

USA

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  • Message 48 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-04, 1:27 AM

TheRealEnglish wrote:

. So how is it Lenovo are effectively allowed to do the same with no pre-warning?? MiniPCI is an industry standard just as HDMI is, it's not like say Apple and they've used their own proprietary connector.  In all fairness I don't even think Apple do this??

     


AFAIK when it comes to Apple, it's "proprietary everything"...including the wireless cards, SSDs and what not. But that's beside the point. We're not discussing Macs here.

 

If there is such a thing as a perfect laptop, I have yet to hear about it, and there are compromises to be made everywhere. My point being, one has to decide for themselves whether owning a Lenovo laptop of their choice outweighs the limitation of implemented whitelists.

 

I'm not defending the practice, but have gotten used to it over the years, and it was well-known and described even back in the IBM days. Some web research can prevent major grief in the given set of circumstances. The whitelisting of wireless cards has been a known practice of IBM and Lenovo - along with HP and Panasonic - for a very long time now. ThinkPad users have been complaining about it back in the days of A31p and T30, both of which are over a decade old designs now.

 

We got nowhere with IBM back then, and I wouldn't expect a different result from complaining to Lenovo either.

 

FWIW, all of the ThinkPads in my signature (apart from T410) are running modded BIOSes and non-whitelisted cards, but that's the choice I consciously made since their "pro" aspects outweighed the "con" aspect of the whitelist in my book.

 

Obviously, YMMV and then some.

Cheers,

George




In daily use: R60F, R500F, T61, T410

Collecting dust: T60

Enjoying retirement: A31p, T42p,

Non-ThinkPads: Panasonic CF-31 & CF-52, HP 8760W




Starting Thursday, 08/14/2014 I'll be away from the forums until further notice. Please do NOT send private messages since I won't be able to read them. Thank you.
.
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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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  • Message 49 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-04, 9:10 AM

Well my T23 doesn't tell me what I can and can't put in it?

 

I'm confused why people think to justify this practice, do they think Lenovo is reading this and will give them a new computer for carrying the torch!!??

 

If I buy an Apple I know what I'm getting into because the company is very open and clear about its business practices and hardware policies. If I buy a Porsche, I know I can't just pop down to Halfords to grab a set of new wheels and I would expect the same grief when buying a now Dell Alienware machine. However, I do not expect to have my hardware controlled and there's no mention made of it on Lenovo's sales site... the box... the manual?? 

 

I read countless reviews before purchasing my current machine and no-one mentioned it, so you're saying I should have looked pre-purchase for something I knew nothing about?

 

I have been building and re-building computers for well over 10 years and this is the first time I've ran into this issue. what does that tell you - It tells you that very few companies do this and that Lenovo do nothing to advertise the fact.

 

They should be made to put some sort of hardware limitations list on the box, I wonder if they would be so quick to add BIOS white-lists then? look at all the problems it's cause for Linux users. It defeats the whole purpose of having a laptop in the first place, especially if I now have to add a USB wireless receiver to it, just to receive 5ghz.

 

I might as well have built a PC!  and with NUC's getting better and better. I can see laptops losing a big chunk of their market, so people like us - the people that buy laptops for their mobility and compact ease of use are going to be the real life blood of the laptop as we know it. So why is Lenovo underhandedly going out of their way to stifle us.

 

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31 Posts

05-22-2013

Norway

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  • Message 50 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-04, 20:35 PM
Agreed. This is the main issue. If we had been informed in advance, or at least had a decent opportunity to find it out, then we couldn`t complaint. Maybe this has been known for ages, but for a first time Lenovo-buyer... there really isn`t any way he/she could have known.

I myself have never bought a Lenovo before now. I bought a couple of old ones with failing wifi. Thinking it would be easy to fix. But I ended up throwing them away because I couldn`t make any wifi cards to work with them. Even then I didn`t connect it to whitelists, as I`ve never heard about the use of those. I just thought it was bad connectors or a mainboard issue, and therefore still wasn`t aware about the whitelists when i bought this new pc. I`ve only owned ASUS, ACER, and several Samsung-laptops. I also owned a Toshiba once, but the need to replace the wifi-card didn`t arise, so I never got to find out if there is such a issue with Toshiba.

How could I have known? Google whitelists when I`m not aware of the use of such lists?
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