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31 Posts

05-22-2013

Norway

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  • Message 71 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-09, 10:40 AM

Nope. I wouldn`t want to pay more for a bigger whitelist, when I can pay less for brands that doesn`t use them. Lenovo is expensive to start with. Lenovo shouldn`t test any wifi-cards at all. With the exeption of the ones that initially are supplied in the pc at delivery. What kind of wifi-card I install after a couple of years, shouldn`t be Lenovo`s concern at all.

 

But the most provocing is that it`s impossibe to find a single whitelisted-wifi card that is current and up to the standard today, and this on a computer bought 6 months ago ? There are only two whitelisted cards for my pc, both useless with linux, and outdated in windows years ago. The least you would expect is that Lenovo supplied new cards in the pc`s they sell, instead of yesterdays technonlogy. 

 

You could at least remove the whitelists in computers that are sold in europe and other continents where the FCC isn`t a factor at all. I don`t understand why people in the US accepts such regulations at all. In the land of the free, one wouldn`t expect regulations that clearly undermines the concept of free trade, and actually are creating monopolistic competition...

 

 

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18 Posts

07-17-2011

Chicago

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  • Message 72 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-09, 19:09 PM

Okay, I have to retract what I said in the previous post.  Not a workaround.  After a little more experimentation, my problem is NOT solved.  The computer does boot up with the "unauthorized" card, but the networking function is not seen in the device manager, only the bluetooth portion is seen in DM.  Also, if you try swapping the cards, the network card is tied to that specific msata port, even have the authorized card in the other slot gives the "unauthorized network card installed" error..  Sorry if I led any of  you astray.

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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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  • Message 73 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-09, 19:42 PM

No not at all, thanks for trying - it's better than what some other people came up with, especially old "that's the way it is".   

This whole concept of locking cards is completely unethical and I'm starting to think is probably illegal, so without further ado I 'm off to see ofcom and trading standards - see if I can't get all my money back for the Y580 and buy from somewhere else.    

 

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9 Posts

06-03-2013

Orange County, CA

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  • Message 74 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-29, 17:15 PM

Well guys. I finally found a solution and its working great so far.
http://postimg.org/image/eb2ncsh77/

http://postimg.org/image/oln4geuo5/

Much better now. If I didn't have morals or ethics I would have sold it on eBay. There is no way I could ever sell my problems to someone else. That just wouldn't be honest. Lenovo executive's and managers need to find their ethics and morals. Anyways.....

I am not against spending money. So I just purchased a new macbook pro. I am willing to spend money, but refuse to give any more to horrible companies like lenovo.

Mods.. Since this post does provide a working solution please do not remove or edit its truth. The pics are real. The story is real.

Thank you all and good luck to you that keep your lenovo products and deal with its limitations.
Brad

 

Moderator Note; link to picture showing valid system s/n edited to prevent abuse

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31 Posts

05-22-2013

Norway

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  • Message 75 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-29, 21:37 PM

Yes, that`s the only solution that works. I`ve also tried just about everything and is about to do the same as you. I don`t want to buy a mac though. I`m just gonna buy as ASUS laptop instead. As I`m a linux-user it`s a waste of money buying a MAC.:)

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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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  • Message 76 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-29, 23:56 PM

That! is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time!

 

If my Y580 didn't owe me so much I'd probably do the same, although I have come close with it keep crashing on me all the time... Actually if anyone has a Y580 that keeps crashing with an error regarding memory management (I think?), I rectified it by putting a Seagate SSHD drive in; hasn't crashed since and it would dump sometimes twice a day!

 

I've just ordered another Lenovo used card FCC ID: TX2-RTL8191SE-L maybe this one will work?

 

I'm also waiting for confirmation from my local Trading Standards to see how I can legally get a full disclosure from Lenovo on their white-listing practice and hopefully some insight into how this is legitimate, as other companies like Dell don't seem to do it?   

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8095 Posts

11-19-2007

United States of America

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  • Message 77 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-30, 19:19 PM

All,

 

I appreciate how strongly you feel about this and I've continued to inquire regarding the whitelist.    What has been explained to me, is that we are implementing the white list to meet the 2 way authentication requirement as defined in this FCC doc.

 

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/kdb/forms/FTSSearchResultPage.cfm?switch=P&id=44637

 

Here is the attachment:

 

https://apps.fcc.gov/kdb/GetAttachment.html?id=%2BfFRmd2u009kcjrH4nqK9A%3D%3D

 

Please see Q & A  5 & 6 on pages 9-10 .     We have to control the card and antenna pairings if customers can change out the cards.  It could be done mechanically, with proprietary antenna and card combinations, but the industry uses modular connections, so we are implementing the whitelist as defined in 5 & 6 to meet this criteria.

As explained to me, behind this are more regulations on the level of RF emissions from the device measured at a give distance.   There is also the complication that most devices have multiple transmitters, wifi, bluetooth, possibly wwan - see question 9.  

 

Question 4: Can Part 15 transmitter modules and associated antennas be sold separately when the
certification authentication protocol is performed by the host?


Answer 4: It is permissible to use the host to provide compliance for the authentication requirement
between the authorized module and antenna. The module shall not transmit until the host
authentication ensures that the proper certified antenna is present. The grantee is responsible for
providing the certification authentication protocol, and must also provide clear instructions to the
host manufacturer on integration of the code within the host for the module to remain compliant.


Question 5: Can an applicant obtain a limited modular approval for a transmitter that operates under
specific host conditions and is installed by end users?


Answer 5: Yes, for user-installed limited module radios in a host (laptops, etc), a two-way
certification authentication protocol or two-way BIOS lock implementation is required to ensure
compliance. This ensures the module verifies that the proper laptop is used and the laptop verifies
that the proper module is used.

 

The Grant condition must state: "This device must use a BIOS lock mechanism which ensures that it
only operates with the hosts as specified in the Certification filing." This ensures the module verifies
that the proper host (laptop) is used, and the host verifies that the proper module is used. For
guidance on RF Exposure Considerations, see Section IV above.
Other options to a BIOS lock mechanism may be considered, but must be FCC endorsed prior to an
FCC approval.


Question 6: Can end users install transmitter modules into a laptop that has an integrated antenna
built into the laptop screen, or on the motherboard?


Answer 6: Yes. However, since the antenna is built into the laptop screen or on the motherboard
and the module can not be tested as a stand-alone module; it can only be approved as a limited
module. Further, the approval requires a two-way certification authentication protocol between the
host and the module. See Answer 5 above.

 


I believe that part of this has to do with allowing customers the abilty to install cards (see question 6). 

 

I can imagine many loopholes that could be argued - perhaps that systems not intended for customer service might be able to get around a whitelist requirement, or that since the antennas are seperate service parts within the LCD / Lid enclosure assembly that they aren't truly integrated, and should be considered apart from question 6.

 

The question of why we are using a white list has come up.  I've researched this with engineering and with a compliance / assurance team today and this was the explaination and reference provided.  

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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31 Posts

05-22-2013

Norway

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  • Posts: 31
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  • Message 78 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-30, 21:59 PM

Why link to the FCC document? It doesn`t apply to anyone living outside of the US. And Asus, Acer, Samsung and others don`t have any issues by not complying to the FCC. Face it, Lenovo is hiding behind FCC, but the real agenda is to reduce the lifespan of a Lenovo-pc, forcing buyers to buy new ones instead of upgrading existing ones. Please don`t insult our intelligence by posting more FCC-crap.

 

Whether I want to comply to the FCC-regulations, is my business. Not Lenovo`s, and Lenovo is in no way obligated to make it impossible for me to install whatever I want to install. It`s my PC, not Lenovo`s, nor the FCC..., and not any other US agencys either. I don`t live there and therefore I don`t have to comply to any of the restrictions that the population in "the land of the free" seems to blindly accept. It`s not much free, that`s for sure.

 

At the very least, Lenovo could remove the whitelist on pc`s that are sold outside of the FCC`s jurisdiction, in europe f.ex. Neither EU or european citizents fancy those kinds of restrictions of free trade...

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18 Posts

07-17-2011

Chicago

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  • Message 79 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-30, 23:05 PM

You know, I had stated earlier in this thread that I had just given up and wasn't concerned about the whitelist thing anymore, but the more Mark posts trying to explain this nonsense, the more irritated I'm getting.  That FCC document could also apply to desktops, but Lenovo is NOT doing the same thing to its desktops which come installed with a wireless card.

 

Furthermore, the FCC document makes no specific mention of the wireless device having to come directly from the company selling the laptop.   In other words, even with the bios locked, you could have locked the bios to that brand and model card and NOT to a card that you bought and modified with code.  In either case, it still does not address the issue of being able to obtain the part without having to purchase it from you and sending the laptop in an an exhorbitant rate.

 

Also, as to the emission of RF at a given distance, I would think that ALL of these cards would meet that spec if they are sold in the US.

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966 Posts

01-28-2013

United States

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  • Message 80 of 253

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-31, 1:35 AM

I also think that FCC document is just an excuse. Whatever the case, unfortunately, Lenovo won't ever get rid of the whitelist. People mostly speculate profit is the reason and it should be for me as well.

 


wrote:

Also, as to the emission of RF at a given distance, I would think that ALL of these cards would meet that spec if they are sold in the US.


I agree completely. Would Amazon, Tigerdirect, Newegg etc. sell those generic Intel WiFi cards in the USA if they're not FCC compliant? I don't think so. Even those companies have to abide by regulations to be able to operate. 

 

Sadly, very few Lenovo laptop models have the whitelist removed. When I purchased mine, I didn't know anything about the whitelist being implemented on Lenovo. Luckily, the whitelist is already removed with the unofficial BIOS update (2.10) for my Y470 (Lenovo's website still has 2.06 while the last batch shipped with 2.12). I was able to upgrade to Intel Dual Band Wireless-N 7260 without any hardware and driver compatibility problems at all.

Lenovo Y470: i7-2670QM | 8 GB DDR3 1333 MHz RAM | Nvidia GeForce GT 550M | 500 GB 7200 RPM Seagate HDD | ASUS PCE-AC56 802.11ac Network Adapter | Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
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