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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-07-31, 7:54 AM

Hi Mark

 

Thanks again for your effort and apologies that you are receiving the flack of everyone's frustration, but surely you must see or are ignoring that would they have supplied you is smoke and mirrors, as others have mentioned this is FCC guideline and never will it be considered as a viable reason for white-listing because other manufactures don't use this practise, which again proves that Lenovo are using these rules to their own ends. I'm not being funny, but we're all quite intelligent here and we can read between the lines.

 

If you manufacture your product to meet the terms of the FCC and our cards are.... wait for it... FCC approved, does this not mean that there is no reason for a whitelist?

 

What I can see from the documentation you so kindly supplied, is that what I just said proves there is no need for the whitelist unless you intend on using proprietary cards? I'm sure it says Intel on my card and not Lenovo??  

 

So we're back to the fact Lenovo are using FCC ruling to manipulate the product lifespan and again as others have said they are doing this globally, which is quite remarkable when you think the FCC does not operate outside the US??

 

Asian manufacturers are cheaper FACT! Although, I have had very little constructive help from Lenovo regarding this and their ignorance over this is extremely disappointing as a consumer, so no I'm not going to shout from the roof tops that Lenovo are not to be bought, as my Y580 was still a good, but not great deal for the price and it does seem on this model that they used an older board, which would explain all the compatibility and stability issues I have with it. However when people use my free PC and Laptop help website, if they ask my opinion - I will warn them of this unexplained limitation put in place by Lenovo and not the FCC.  

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1 Posts

08-21-2013

Sao Paulo, Brazil

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Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-08-21, 22:24 PM

I have searched through Lenovo-Brazil website and couldn´d find WWAN.

All support phone where busy for hours, then I couldn't ask for help! The phone recorded message tell's me to ask help here: http://download.lenovo.com/websupport; (Not to mention it is against Brazilian law as I called a number from Brazil and link redirect's to a site in english - almost no one will understand english)

 

If Lenovo doesn't provide the hardware, why do you still use a whitelist?

Another option would do some bios hacking in order to third-party card, but I will loose the warranty. To buy the card from outside will make the card REALLY expensive.

 

The whitelist is just like a bug and so it should be fixed (removed).

 

Moderator Note; subject edited; post merged in.

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46 Posts

04-14-2011

Seattle

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Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-08-22, 8:48 AM

Thanks Mark for looking into this and for providing such an informative response.  I personally find the whitelist issue frustrating, but I can see the validity given the FCC documents that you quoted.  Clearly whitelist are a "problem" that won't be going away anytime in the near future.

 

I do want to ask however.  Does your contact know if the antennas inside laptops change from version to version.  For instance, does the x220 have a different antenna than the x230?  The documentation above seems to imply that if the same antenna type was used from model to model, then a single FCC approval would be needed to certify a card for multiple generations of a system. 

 

If my assumption that the antennas do not change frequently is true, it would be a very nice change if the WWAN/WiFi card contained a whitelist of antennas that it was certified to work with instead of having the BIOS contain a whitelist of the cards.  The BIOS would know which antenna was contained in the system and would then verify that the antenna present in the system was also listed in the wireless card.

 

This architecture has a subtle benefit. Lenovo would presumably want newer wireless cards to work on their newer systems, so the new wireless cards would be certified to work with the antenna present on newer models. A customer buying a newer wireless card would then be able to use that wireless card on any older systems that had the same antenna model, and many currently angry customers would rejoice.

 

 

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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-08-22, 9:02 AM

That's a great idea..... or Lenovo could be more like Dell and NOT have a whitelist... just saying.

 

For everyone else still frustrated by this issue I have been looking into and ordered a mini PCIe to USB adapter, my hope is that it will allow me to internally use a USB wireless receiver from within the laptop, this is obviously dependant of whether the BIOS supports it and does not block it. It also depends on whether you have the space available internally.     

 

Mini PCIe to USB.jpg

 

 

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12878 Posts

06-06-2011

RU

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Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-08-22, 9:43 AM
TheRealEnglish,

where will you connect internal wwan antennas to? Or do you hope to use internal antennas of USB modem between parts of laptop case as electromagnetic shield? Do USB cards have such antenna connectors as built-in? I'm absolutely sure USB modem will overheat in short time inside of laptop case.

I doubt in this solution.



x220 • Gobi 2000 3g | hdd, msata ssd, wwan, wifi, gps -- unique hand-made config
ThinkPad 25 Special Anniversary Edition. #Retro. Signed by D.Hill
T470p | X1 Carbon Gen3 | Miix 2 10" | Yoga Tablet 2-1050F (Android) + BT Keyboard
ThinkPad Stack • 2.4/5 Wireless Router, HDD 1 TB, BT Speaker, Power Bank, Mobile Projector

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25 Posts

06-24-2013

Essex, UK

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  • Message 86 of 252

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-08-22, 10:22 AM

Hi x220forMe,

 

I was hoping that the USB wireless dongle would be powerful enough to connect without needing the antenna. This way allowing me to connect a wireless .ac or 5 ghz receiver regardless of the whitelist parameters. However if the signal wasn't strong enough I could always strip down the USB receiver and solder antenna connectors to it, the same way people add extended aerials to their dongles.

 

I just want to find a workaround that does not require flashing a homebrew BIOS and could also give the Linux guys a working solution too.

 

You know this could all be solved if Lenovo just released an unlocked BIOS, which required agreement to new user terms regarding the implicated changes to your warranty when doing so. That way everyone with this issue would be given a choice "Use at your own risk". We could then make an informed choice to use newer cards and adapters with the understanding it may affect any warranty or return claims thereafter. This to me is a no brainer. If Lenovo really wasn't using the whitelist to control the laptops wireless productivity life span, then why don't they offer this?

 

In the case of my Y580 it shipped with a substandard wireless card and only allows 2 or 3 more substandard cards and it's locked at 8 GB's of Ram. The longevity of this machine has been completely controlled. I see no other reason that makes any educated sense.    

 

 

 

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23 Posts

05-25-2010

US

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  • Message 87 of 252

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-09-11, 5:54 AM

Mark_Lenovo said: The question of why we are using a white list has come up.  I've researched this with engineering and with a compliance / assurance team today and this was the explaination and reference provided.

 

It is not an engineering issue, the 04W3763 is likely the same board as the Intel 7260.HMW--albeit with a (very) nominally modified firmware. You need to speak with your sales and marketing folks: the ones who decided that the former should sell for $80-90 vs less than $30 for the latter...  Or is it that your purchasing folks aren't getting as good a price as the Provantages and CDWs of the world?

W530 2538-52U Win 10 Pro
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12878 Posts

06-06-2011

RU

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Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-09-11, 12:41 PM

@Mark_Lenovo

I've read your post and explanation on previouse page of this thread. Nothing news and revelations.

Just 5 pennies from me are here.

I was silent and didn't express my opinion about this case since the 1st my thread here, http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/x220-i5-2520-amp-Qualcomm-Gobi-2000-Error-1802/m-p/454089.

I'll not blame anybody in Lenovo in bad qualification or short-sightedness (I mean marketing staff first of all). It's your choice and your business.

But look at my sign clearly. What have I got?
1. Unfortunately, the last ThinkPad with good but usual configuration for (I hope) the long life with reliable, time-checked but not white listed (in the current x220' wl) 3g card.
2. Another one TP with unique configuration w/o analogues at the market not only in Lenovo progucts line. I know several happy guys with the same solution.

Again, what have I got? Good laptops with almost all needed (for me, of course) parameters and specifications.

What has Lenovo lost in my case (I mean the 2nd laptop)? Money? No. "Just" possibility to be the 1st and the single company who has professional laptop with such specification. But I'm that man with such laptop, not Lenovo.

Note, in the 1st laptop original BIOS (not hacked) with original wl is using.

Warranty? It might be a problem for "handsless" guys only.

The words (not your, Mark, of course) about FCC regulation, antennas in pairs with modems, certificates, quality, approval... are for dammies. Look at the thread about x220 and approved Ericsson f5521, for example. Look at the market and vendors. "Only Lenovo, HP and Dell are the real laptop vendors, all others are illegal in terms of wl, quality, FCC etc". Isn't it?



x220 • Gobi 2000 3g | hdd, msata ssd, wwan, wifi, gps -- unique hand-made config
ThinkPad 25 Special Anniversary Edition. #Retro. Signed by D.Hill
T470p | X1 Carbon Gen3 | Miix 2 10" | Yoga Tablet 2-1050F (Android) + BT Keyboard
ThinkPad Stack • 2.4/5 Wireless Router, HDD 1 TB, BT Speaker, Power Bank, Mobile Projector

Do it well, worse becomes itself

Communities:   English    Deutsche    Español    Portugues    Русскоязычное    Česká    Slovenská    Українська   Moto English

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2029 Posts

12-02-2007

AU

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  • Message 89 of 252

Re: Is white listing illegal anywhere?

2013-09-25, 22:38 PM
------------------------------
I don't work for Lenovo
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6 Posts

10-01-2013

Turkey

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  • Message 90 of 252

Re: WWAN and wireless card BIOS whitelists? Lenovo, COME ON.

2013-10-16, 22:10 PM

Thanks for insulting our intelligence, Lenovo. I will break my thinkpad e430 by repeatedly hitting it on the wall. I am really, really frustrated because of your whitelist. The broadcom card you INSIST putting in each of your laptops is CRAP. 

 

I tried the alternative cracked bios flashing way. But THANKS LENOVO FOR FLASH PROTECTION IN 2.XX BIOS VERSIONS ! I hope you bankrupt, i will never ever buy any of your products ever again. There is no point in putting non sense whitelists in your laptops. And also, if it is really illegal in US, which doesn't interest me, you could have released an unlocked bios for your customers from other regions. But no, this is totally about profit.

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