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3 Posts

10-21-2010

New York

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  • Message 21 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-10-21, 17:16 PM

"consumers should realize that manufacturers are forbidden by law to compel their customers to purchase an unwanted operating system as a prerequisite to buying a computer. This is because antitrust law makes illegal a practice known as "tying." Findlaw.com defines tying as "an arrangement or agreement in which a seller will sell a product to a buyer only if the buyer will also buy another product." Findlaw.com further discusses tying" Quoting: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6538

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21115 Posts

12-20-2008

Australia, Melbourne

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  • Message 22 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-10-21, 21:23 PM

if that is the case, then most computer company are in trouble. But in practice this is not the case, think about the computers that Apple sells, can you get one without Operating System?

Regards,

Jin Li

May this year, be the year of 'DO'!

I am a volunteer, and not a paid staff of Lenovo or Microsoft
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43 Posts

11-18-2009

Germany

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  • Message 23 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-10-22, 16:41 PM

Next they are going to want mobile phones, TV's and microwaves without the software.

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1 Posts

11-09-2010

USA

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  • Message 24 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-11-09, 17:34 PM

This entire topic is pointless. The is the result of a handful of whiny, complaining Microsoft haters.  There is no global movement afoot to displace Windows or for mass Windows refunds.

 

The bottom line is this -- users are free to purchase what they want from who they want.  Products are sold as-is and clearly state what is included in the system at the price sold.  If the customer doesn't accept the system AS SOLD, they can and should return the (entire) product OR NEVER BUY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.  To buy a system then throw a tantrum that there is no path to refund the price of the operating system is foolish.  I don't buy a computer and call the manufacturer to return the hard drive.  Or the memory.  Why should Lenovo be expected to accept a return of the OS?

 

If you do not like the situation and there is this HUGE groundswell of opposition to Windows and users demanding systems without it, start your own PC company and sell PCs with Linux (or whatever) preinstalled.  Many have tried.  No one has managed to make a competitive company out of it yet.  Dell tried it and bailed on it a few years later.  Outside of a small enthusiast community, there is no desire for these type of systems. 

 

And, quite frankly, I imagine about half the people who claim to run something other than Windows will eventually put Windows on it.  They are just trying to "stick it to the man" or get something for next to nothing.  That has been my experience numerous times over the years talking to the members of the "open source movement". 

 

 

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7651 Posts

11-24-2007

USA

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  • Message 25 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-11-11, 5:50 AM

While I don't necessarily agree that this topic is pointless per se, I find it highly unlikely that things are going to change anytime soon...

 

Being one of the people who will always complain about "Windows" key on Lenovo ThinkPads - something that wasn't there in the IBM days - as well as being a recreational Linux user, I'll say that there's next to no reason in the strict business sense for any computer manufacturer to ship machines with anything but Windows, whatever I may personally  think of the OS in question.

 

Anyone who sees a serious business opportunity in selling ThinkPads without an OS - or bundled with Linux - should put their money where their mouth is and order 5,000 laptops with no OS from Lenovo or any other manufacturer...and I'll bet my last red cent that they'll live to regret it...take it from someone who sells more ThinkPads in a month than most people get to see in a lifetime...

Cheers,

George




In daily use: R60F, R500F, T61, T410

Collecting dust: T60

Enjoying retirement: A31p, T42p,

Non-ThinkPads: Panasonic CF-31 & CF-52, HP 8760W




Starting Thursday, 08/14/2014 I'll be away from the forums until further notice. Please do NOT send private messages since I won't be able to read them. Thank you.
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4169 Posts

11-20-2007

United States of America

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  • Message 26 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-11-11, 6:38 AM

keep-calm-it-s-a-thinkpad-sm2.jpg

English English Community   Deutsche Deutsche Community   Español Comunidad en Español   ru.gif Русскоязычное Сообщество


Jane
nonnymouselenovoff1.gif

2015 X1 Carbon, ThinkPad Slate, T410s, X301, X200 Tablet, T60p, HP TouchPad, iPad Air 2, iPhone 5S, IdeaTab A2107A, Yoga Tablet, Yoga 3 Pro
I AM one of those crazy ThinkPad zealots!
If you find a post helpful and it answers your question, please mark it as an "Accepted Solution"!

I am not a Lenovo employee

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2029 Posts

12-02-2007

Australia

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  • Message 27 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-11-12, 0:04 AM


amichael wrote:


This is because antitrust law makes illegal a practice known as "tying." Findlaw.com defines tying as "an arrangement or agreement in which a seller will sell a product to a buyer only if the buyer will also buy another product." Findlaw.com further discusses tying" Quoting: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6538


There is a HUGE amount of case law which covers the supply of products which necessarily involve bundles of componentry sourced from various vendors, where the bundle is a basic requirement to the delivery of a functional product to a common user of the product.

 

A commonly cited example is regarding automobiles and tyres.  The tyres are rarely (if ever) manufactured by the vendor of the automobile, but an automobile delivered without tyres is not a functional product.  Therefore there is no tying breech involved with the supply of tyres as part of the product bundle which comprises an automobile.

 

------------------------------
I don't work for Lenovo
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38 Posts

01-11-2010

United States of America

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  • Message 28 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-11-22, 17:02 PM
wrote:
There is a HUGE amount of case law which covers the supply of products which necessarily involve bundles of componentry sourced from various vendors, where the bundle is a basic requirement to the delivery of a functional product to a common user of the product.

Bad example. OS to the computer is more like fuel for the car, not like tyres. The car can't run without fuel, but one can choose fuel type on his own. It would be weird if some company would force customers to buy only one type of fuel. The same is with OSes. Since different OSes can be used with the computer, bundling the OS with the machine is illegal. It's also obvious, that bundling of the OS is a monopolistic market control practice, thus it should be controlled by antitrust laws.
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38 Posts

01-11-2010

United States of America

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  • Message 29 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-11-22, 17:11 PM

wrote:

Being one of the people who will always complain about "Windows" key on Lenovo ThinkPads - something that wasn't there in the IBM days - as well as being a recreational Linux user, I'll say that there's next to no reason in the strict business sense for any computer manufacturer to ship machines with anything but Windows, whatever I may personally  think of the OS in question.


I'd say the main is reason is that's it's illegal, but most companies get away with it, until customers start to sue them in court. This situation is not normal in any sense of the word, and there is every reason to bring this foul pratcice of bundling to an end.
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21115 Posts

12-20-2008

Australia, Melbourne

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  • Message 30 of 40

Re: Windows Refund

2010-11-23, 1:58 AM

if some country's court did rule against bundling the OS with Laptop, it probably won't affect the price of the laptop very much, you may get like 30 dollars off. Those people whom want the OEM OS would probably pay more, as OS company would want to recoup the money lost in the legal battle from the end consumer.

This is not going to be a win win or win lose situation, it would be more like a lose lose situation for lots of consumers and laptop manufacturers.

Those people whom are arguing about violation of civil liberty and consumer laws are probably only putting their own interests ahead of other user. Maybe one should put up energy and time to productive use? 

Regards,

Jin Li

May this year, be the year of 'DO'!

I am a volunteer, and not a paid staff of Lenovo or Microsoft
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