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58 Posts

02-20-2008

CT, US

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  • Message 1 of 12

WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-05-29, 0:13 AM
So i bought Intel 4965agn and i wanted to upgrade my Y510 but it says hardware its not compatibile with the system system is halted wont start up. Any way around it ??
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2342 Posts

03-12-2008

Moscow, Russia

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  • Message 2 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-05-29, 21:44 PM
Actually Lenovo does not support non-certified for Lenovo hardware. It's really a pity.
On thinkpads there's a workaround , told on thinkwiki.org , but I'd not advise you to do that - this experiment may cause warranty loss and laptop death. Unrecoverable death. Totally.
I suggest you just return this WiFi for moneyback or just sell it somewhere (ebay) and buy agn adapter directly from Lenovo.
//help will save the world
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46 Posts

03-21-2008

United States of America

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  • Message 3 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-05-30, 2:50 AM
I went down the same path.  Purchased an Intel 4965agn card and swapped into my Y510.  It refused to boot with the foreign card.  Ended up selling it on the internet and paid a premium for a Lenovo branded Intel 4965agn card.  Visually the cards were identical, but the Lenovo had a Lenovo part number.  It worked without any problem.
 
Good luck with the upgrade.
 
 
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40 Posts

05-23-2008

Harbin China

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  • Message 4 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-05-31, 20:12 PM
@Hawk521 and skripatch :)

Question for clarification: How does purchasing an Intel PRO/Wireless 4965 PC Mini-card to upgrade my Lenovo Y510 Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG PC mini-card, become an issue in that Lenovo would not support non-certified drivers for Lenovo hardware?

I'm just trying to get clarification here, as it would seem that this isn't the case at all, because first and foremost, Lenovo Y510 Ideapad doesn't determine what certified drivers are even needed until the operating system checks, or that an enabled TPM (Trusted Platform Module) chip was checking hardware signatures which most certainly doesn't apply to non-certified hardware drivers in Windows XP Professional SP3, right?

Maybe, skripatch was thinking of how Windows Vista has the default requirement of checking all it's hardware drivers to be "Microsoft" digitally signed to be certified for use in it's operating system? That is unless Lenovo has got all it's components made just for Lenovo or that something else has been added to the hardware here to know what is non-certified or should I be saying non-Lenovo authorized in hardware?

I haven't attempted this wireless hardware upgrade on a Lenovo Y510 IdeaPad as yet, but I have already found it possible to integrate a wireless mini-card with a bit of effort in finding a working hardware driver. Such as purchasing from Shenzhen an AR5211 (802.11.a/b/g) for my old Compaq EVO N800c. Yes, I also added two new antennas. After installing the Atheros Client Utility v3.1.1.50 it's been rock solid, dependable and actually works better than most newer PC for transmitting multiple files simultaneously without dropouts.
Y510-6 59012693 X86 XP-SP3

同一个世界同一个梦想
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2342 Posts

03-12-2008

Moscow, Russia

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  • Message 5 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-05-31, 20:53 PM
No, that's not about drivers. It's much more simple - Y510 checks internal devices for DMI information. If it is not Lenovo-manufatured(certified), then boot stops.
//help will save the world
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40 Posts

05-23-2008

Harbin China

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  • Message 6 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-06-01, 0:45 AM
@skripatch :)

Thanks for sharing more information on the subject. I read since 1999, Microsoft required OEMs and BIOS vendors to support the DMI (Desktop Management Interface) interface/data set in order to have Microsoft certification.

I read that DMI is a layer of abstraction between system components and the software that manages them. The System Management BIOS (SMBIOS) is an extension of the Basic Input Output System (BIOS) that formulates and delivers this information to the operating system.

Again, we see how the operating system makes the "decisions" of what to do with this information, right?

When a query is made to a DMI-enabled device, the memory-resident DMI agent sends back data such as model ID, serial number, memory and port addresses in a management information file (MIF). It can also extract data from memory to provide a current status.

You can download the System Management BIOS Display Viewer v3.13 for Windows OS here:
ftp://ftp.sudleyplace.com/sudleyplace/smbiosw.zip

In addition, someone else had wrote, "My laptop was sent out for repair and when it is back today, the mainboard is changed. However, now I cannot installed the downloaded software because the machine name in bios and in DMI is changed to Sony 80KE67107313 instead of VGN-SZ160P. Also I cannot perform a system recovery, it says the model is not right, confirm the model."

Comment: While the idea of identifying hardware is important, it's apparent in that DMI also serves another purpose. The purpose of restricting hardware via proprietary algorithms. This sounds like the same story with the automobile industry. Here, each manufacture creates it own proprietary interface with their electronic control unit, which operates the vehicle intelligence. All these electronic control units do the same job, task and work, but far be it that any individual might want to swap and use another ECU on their vehicle. I could also bring up Apple's iPod using DRM as well and the recent Microsoft DRM music restrictions which prevented it's own customers to access their songs, etc... Just how is all this good for people?

Now, I am wondering why are Lenovo customers also experiencing the same disadvantages having purchased legitimated hardware products in which the same technologies are sold? What is the difference between an Intel PRO/Wireless 4965 mini-card bought from a vendor online, and say Lenovo whom doesn't even manufacture the product, except as noted above, in that one works while the other doesn't?

So I am wondering, unless Lenovo provides newer hardware specifically for Lenovo's Y510 IdeaPad, does that mean whenever something new is released to the public to be innovative, without Lenovo supporting it, that is providing their proprietary algorithm used in the DMI information strings, Lenovo customers will be unable to benefit and make use of that new technology?

Can anyone explain the situation more clearly?

What is going to be the solution here, hacking the BIOS DMI tables, or emulating the BIOS as done for Vista activation?
Y510-6 59012693 X86 XP-SP3

同一个世界同一个梦想
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2342 Posts

03-12-2008

Moscow, Russia

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  • Message 7 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-06-01, 6:27 AM
You've read right about DMI. But you didn't capture the main idea - main idea is that DMI contains data. It's like a sticker inside your car - anyone can see it. It doesn't matter how it is done and by whoom. DMI data can be viewd by some progs, it can be read by special controllers (for HDD for example) and sure it can be read from BIOS.
When system starts up, BIOS checks DMI integrity for internal devices. If not "legal", than stop. This behaviour came from Thinkpad series as far as I understand (though I'm not familiar close with all situation), since in Thinkpads there're CRU, that are strictly given certain part numbers, so not any of non-Lenovo hardware is allowed. Also such restriction is made because different models have different complectations and it also depends on country 0 we've seen here already some argues on such politics and none can explain why do Russian laptops have Bluetooth and TC, but USA do not.
As you mentioned, hacking either BIOS DMI or device's DMI can help. There's a risk of loosing the device, so I'd prefer not BIOS to change.
If you lurk more, you may be interested in some additional information on subject - thinkwiki.org is helpfull, though solutions there are dangerous for untechy people, I see that you know what you're doing.
I'll PM you.
Please turn PM on.


Message Edited by skripatch on 06-01-2008 10:40 AM

Message Edited by skripatch on 06-01-2008 10:40 AM
//help will save the world
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40 Posts

05-23-2008

Harbin China

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  • Message 8 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-06-01, 17:55 PM
@skripatch :)

Thank you for the continuing support of information. So basically, your stating, "When the PC system starts up, BIOS checks the DMI integrity for all internal hardware devices to be certified by means of a hash checksum value. If not "legal", meaning the information does NOT match "What specifically?" the BIOS post stops at this point?

Typically, from what I read, in order for different components within a computer system to work together effectively, each must agree on certain specific operating parameters. Often, standards or specifications are adopted or agreed upon by various industries or groups of companies which define certain operating parameters. Thus, if two components comply with the same standard(s) or specification(s), then the two components should be able to work together effectively in the same system?

However, the Desktop Management BIOS Specification (version 2.0, published Mar. 6, 1996), includes a Desktop Management Interface (DMI). The DMI BIOS Specification provides, among other advantages, general purpose nonvolatile (GPNV) data areas which can be accessed to store various data by various applications running on the system.

Since the GPNV data area may store vital manufacturing data a mechanism is used for restricting write access to selected GPNV data areas to prevent unauthorized changes (fraudulent purposes) to the data stored therein. Additionally, in order to maintain compliance with the DMI BIOS Specification, any protection against unauthorized updates to GPNV data areas must not violate the DMI BIOS Specification, and so on...

It does seem possible to amend the PC DMI information table contained within the general purpose nonvolatile storage once the master erasure security 24-byte alphanumeric key(s) is/are known, which are stored in a the general purpose nonvolatile storage area accessible only by BIOS, right?

Why should all these extra steps even be required by Lenovo customers when making legitimated purchases to replace and or upgrade their Lenovo hardware from other vendors and or suppliers that obviously haven't informed their customers that these hardware products are locked in using vendor certification?

Isn't this sort of thing like demanding your automobile made by General Motors must only use authorized General Motors tires which may or may not be always better, but are usually always higher cost? Could other individuals see this policing policy of using certified hardware devices as a means of being a protectionist by restricting competition rather than as for insuring hardware device compatibility?

Perhaps, it would be more advisable to inform consumers before becoming Lenovo customers, that there is this Lenovo/Microsoft policy of vendors locking in their hardware devices via certification to which only Lenovo authorized hardware which is "certified" can be supported in this situation?

How many other Lenovo customers don't understand or know that simply making legitimated purchases from different vendors or suppliers will prevent their hardware devices from functioning without being certified for Lenovo, right?

Truthfully, what is the difference from a Lenovo certified Intel PRO/Wireless 4965 and that of another non certified Lenovo Intel PRO/Wireless 4965? As I understand, it's only a matter of being certified for Lenovo, right? The Intel PRO/Wireless 4965 functions and performs no less the same.

I think other vendors are doing the same here, so it's NOT only and just Lenovo.

Message Edited by Fulong on 06-01-2008 10:58 AM
Y510-6 59012693 X86 XP-SP3

同一个世界同一个梦想
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2342 Posts

03-12-2008

Moscow, Russia

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  • Message 9 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-06-01, 18:41 PM
Fulong, exactly. You're right all around.
BIOS just stops if "illegal" hardware in mini-PCIe slots is detected. RAM,Processor,HDD are not touched with this. Not sure about Video.
I do not know the exact purposes for that.
Just can suggest that, as I said, t comes from Thinkpads with their CRU's politics.
 have some questions to person that decided to do this and also thought that different countries require different modifications. But, it's a pity, no one will answer here.
//help will save the world
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40 Posts

05-23-2008

Harbin China

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  • Message 10 of 12

Re: WiFi Upgrade Help??!!

2008-06-02, 0:07 AM
@skripatch :)

Comment: I think the main purpose is very clear when looking at the evidence, in that content owners (U.S. MPAA and RIAA) are demanding both a software and hardware DRM solution before they are comfortable letting digital works play on a PC. So what does this mean? The open platform PC you have grown to love is inevitably going to disappear.

By the way, for those who are not familiar with what is an open PC platform, it is one where ANYONE can buy off-the-shelf PC hardware components and build their own PC mixing, matching, and upgrading hardware at their own discretion. Moreover, depending on the PC architecture one chooses, the user has the option of installing one of various operating systems (OS) to suit their needs as well. Meaning the PC end user isn't locked in to an all proprietary platform in which to become completely dependent upon by whatever terms agreed in the end user license agreement set forth.

In order to have a trusted/secure computer for the playback of premium digital content, computer owners will be required to have the following certified, DRM-embedded hardware: CPU, motherboard, hard drive, graphics card, sound card, and monitor (yes, even the monitor).

Protected Video Path (PVP) provides encryption of premium content as it passes over the user-accessible PCIe bus to discrete graphics cards. The bottom line is that if you decide to swap out one of the above mentioned hardware items with a non-certified component, the system will be crippled, or worse, unable to boot!

Microsoft wants to make ALL future computers “protected environments,” like it or not – most likely for the reason that computers are becoming a commodity. “Why upgrade when you can buy a new computer?” is their reasoning. As to how consumers are going to react to these changes, we’ll have to wait and see. But I, for one, will think long and hard before continuing down Microsoft’s upgrade path.
Y510-6 59012693 X86 XP-SP3

同一个世界同一个梦想
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