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676 Posts

07-22-2019

Canada

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 15:18 PM

Firstly apologies as my last post was slightly rushed, I was feeling unwell yesterday (vaccine shot...so not complaining), and I was writing it for the 2nd time so didn't spend as long proofing it as I probably should have done. I hope this post doesn't generate the same backlash, but I'm likely to go quiet until I have results I can share.

 

I believe the e-cert does have value - it's a benchmark to measure against. Its the same across all platforms so you can compare and decide if the system meets your needs. It is a standard we have to meet, and I understand your points above but it does ensure that a minimum threshold is reached before we sell the platform. I'm pretty sure nobody on this thread brought the system with Linux as a preload - we didn't put it online precisely because we had these issues and didn't pass the cert test.

 

We've been working to solve a number of issues on this platforms. It's taken longer than it should (no arguments there) but we've made progress and cleared a lot of them (including the power off issue) so some of the comments above were a bit salty. I get it though and understand the frustration.

 

Someone above noted about contacting AMD, and I do want to highlight that I'm discussing with AMD engineers. For S3 sleep any fixes will likely need to come from our FW team - and I'll be working to get that Linux number down as close as we can to the Windows number. I suspect that's still not going to be acceptable to a number of people in this thread - but that's my target right now. I can't make any promises on dates or even on achieving success - but we are working on it.

 

Mark

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3 Posts

06-25-2021

Germany

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 15:57 PM

So far I have been a quiet reader of this thread, but I'm increasingly frustrated with my T14s, so adding to the other voices.

 

> I'm pretty sure nobody on this thread brought the system with Linux as a preload

 

At least I didn't buy the system with any operating system preinstalled, with the clear intent of having a Linux only system to replace my T450s that slowly but surely shows signs of age (and maltreatment, ahem). Given that the power drain is not the only issue that the T14s suffers from [1,2,3,4], I really wish I had noticed these issues earlier and could still return this piece of garbage. Even the base panel/plastic doesn't fit properly and makes a clicking sound when pressed at the wrong location.

 

After 15 years of happily buying thinkpads and recommending them to friends and colleagues, I'm beyond frustrated with the hardware and software quality. I will not recommend these systems anymore, and will give them a wide berth in future purchase decisions.

 

 

[1] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-T400-T500-and-newer-T-series-Laptops/Suggestions-welcome-for-improving-T14s-webcam-image-quality-on-Linux/m-p/5046892?page=13

[2] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/T14s-AMD-Trackpoint-almost-unusable/m-p/5064952?page=2

[3] https://github.com/fwupd/firmware-lenovo-thinkpad/issues/129

[4] https://github.com/fwupd/firmware-lenovo-thinkpad/issues/131

 

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45 Posts

10-11-2020

United States of America

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 16:01 PM

@ MarkRHPearson wrote:

and I' be working to get that Linux number down as close as we can to the Windows number. I suspect that' still not going to be acceptable to a number of people in this thread - but that' my target right now.

 

The windows number is presumably S0ix. You must know that S3 is a deeper sleep, with the CPU off, so why would you pick S0ix as the target for S3? It's absurd, an no one is going to fall for this trick.

 

The proper target is S3 with Intel, and your engineers know perfectly well what that is, and I suspect so do you: around 500mwh

 

 

 

 

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37 Posts

09-08-2020

Germany

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 16:59 PM

@ MarkRHPearson wrote:

Firstly apologies as my last post was slightly rushed, I was feeling unwell yesterday (vaccine shot...so not complaining), and I was writing it for the 2nd time so didn' spend as long proofing it as I probably should have done. I hope this post doesn' generate the same backlash, but I' likely to go quiet until I have results I can share.

 

I believe the e-cert does have value - it' a benchmark to measure against. Its the same across all platforms so you can compare and decide if the system meets your needs. It is a standard we have to meet, and I understand your points above but it does ensure that a minimum threshold is reached before we sell the platform. I' pretty sure nobody on this thread brought the system with Linux as a preload - we didn' put it online precisely because we had these issues and didn' pass the cert test.

 

We' been working to solve a number of issues on this platforms. It' taken longer than it should (no arguments there) but we' made progress and cleared a lot of them (including the power off issue) so some of the comments above were a bit salty. I get it though and understand the frustration.

 

Someone above noted about contacting AMD, and I do want to highlight that I' discussing with AMD engineers. For S3 sleep any fixes will likely need to come from our FW team - and I' be working to get that Linux number down as close as we can to the Windows number. I suspect that' still not going to be acceptable to a number of people in this thread - but that' my target right now. I can' make any promises on dates or even on achieving success - but we are working on it.

 

Mark

 

Thanks for your answer Mark. No hard feelings against you personally,
since you are not responsible for the deeds of your employer.

 

Anyway, to me this situation explains a lot how things work at
Lenovo internally. If 1.7W/h S3 power consumption is a value that Lenovo
considers acceptable to start selling a T ThinkPad model to end-customers

(after all it passes the e-cert, right?), then I guess this pretty much means the
end of the ThinkPad brand (at least in my eyes). From now on, buying a
T-ThinkPad doesn't  automatically guarantee a top-notch experience.
On the contrary, you may easily get a device that won't even survive a
weekend in standby. But of course you are still expected to pay the
premium price.


Unfortunately, I also have to state that Mark's outlook doesn't make me very
optimistic. If something around 1.3W/h in S3 is the best we can hope for
(but even that is not guaranteed), then there will be no substantial changes in
the behavior we are currently observing (T14 discharging to 0% after 1-2 days
in standby). So ~0.5 W/h in S3 is most likely never to be achieved with T14 AMD,
irrespective of the OS (remember that W10 suffers from these issues as well,
so Linux is not the real problem here).

Now I'm pretty sure that this was the last brand new ThinkPad I bought, despite
of more than 10 years of using and promoting this Lenovo product. If Lenovo does
not feel ashamed of selling machines with unusable standby to their loyal customers,
then they may well continue to do so without me. I don't particularly enjoy being fooled
and I guess this also pretty much applies to everyone else in this thread.

I don't really have much more to say. As the proverb goes,
fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Thanks to Lenovo
this time I learned my lesson.




 

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10 Posts

11-29-2018

Germany

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 17:25 PM

Marc, I also was quiet for long now but I think it's time to speak up. When "please wait" (several months!) is the support Lenovo gives to high end (2400€) business devices, then somehting really went wrong. I purchased the top model with max. RAM, privacy display, all interfaces available built-in, etc. I use an original Dock – and after 6 Months still have issues known at release time. This device isn't the latest model (new X1 etc.) any more and already does receive less attention. I dare that it will never be usable 100%, neither on W10 nor on Linux. With Apple devices and in the US, this now would be some Lenovo-gate. If it turns out that way, this will also be my last Lenovo device.

 

I purcased T14s as replacement for a perfectly fine T480s as that had a broken display panel. I wanted to have a 100% working replacement prior to bringing the old one to service. It was repaired faster than expected and is good as new now. Well, since had two laptops but only need one, I gave it to my son. I'm now left with the T14s. I'm fine with its performance in general, but I think/feel (NOT measured!) that when I run W10 on it, its fan is quiet more often. Meaning that it uses more power on Linux, even when on/idle. (Yes, it's quite warm also, even while I'm just typing this text.) This thread is about energy consumption when in standby, which is also worse that in W10. On top of all, I could use WWAN on the T480s but cannot use it in the T14s since the XMM7360 causes issues and I cannot use the old WWAN card from the T480s.

 

I want to emphasise that I honor your hard work to communicate with AMD, the fw team etc. – but what finally counts is whether Lenovo as a manufacturer does fulfil customer's expectations. To that end, this thread shows that Lenovo(!) is NOT WILLING to take it's (loyal!) (Linux) customers seriously. YOU cannot solve this alone. This is a management decision on what to focus on and how many resources to put into. Currently, this looks to me like you're the only one that does have a real interest. As long as this is the case, these issues won't change.

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104 Posts

02-14-2021

Ukraine

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 17:29 PM

> but we've made progress and cleared a lot of them (including the power off issue) so

 

Mark, i’m sorry, but, no. i’ve posted multiple times that POWER OFF issue is still not solved. it is exact same drain as in 1.29. What are you talking about?

 

my battery still drains 1% in 2-4 days.

 

so lenovo basically reverted what it screwed up in 1.30 or in 1.31.

 

power off drain in 1.29 and 1.32 is identical. 

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83 Posts

04-17-2021

Greece

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 18:40 PM

So... We have an admission that Lenovo knew from day one that it is a crappy laptop platform that can't be fixed.

 

What was all this waiting for? You could say we know it 10 months ago. We srcewed you. Just accept it.

 

This entire series of laptops is a fire hazard when in sleep mode.

 

 

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389 Posts

03-06-2021

Germany

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 18:41 PM

@blaumetallic , @t14g1amd , and others who are willing to help testing something.

 

 

I am traveling and alone testing takes forever, moreover, I don't have W10 installed.

The user who posted about the battery disconnect gave me the idea.

 

Here is what I've found out on my box  (P14s):

 

First, we need to disable the battery from the BIOS power menu and let the box shut down for

about 30secs to 1minutes, it is not the same as removing the BAT but we'll see something interesting.

Also, timing here seems important, so you may need to experiment a bit on your machine.

 

Now be sure you remove any USB devices etc may be connected to your box, we want to test just the machine alone.

Also if you have any power management SW running, disable it, while testing this.

 

 

Plug back the AC, power on the machine, and boot to OS. 

DO not remove the AC yet, close the LID, and be sure the box entered S3, remove now the AC.

 

Here, with the right timing on Linux:

 

15m 0% drain

30m 0% drain

3h about 0.650 W/h ( 650mWh )

 

However, at some point, you need to go to BIOS and disable BAT again since it starting to eat the energy as before.

 

That gave me another idea.. PSU firmware management br0ken, and it looks to me to be that case.

While I need the box, I've made just short tests now like the following:

 

1) Disable BAT in BIOS.

2) re-enable it and boot into the OS

( each run 20m )

3) Let AC plugged, close LID, wait until the box is in S3, remove AC.

4) after 20m wake the machine & measure the power drain, here around 0.13 W

5) suspend the machine now without AC plugged, power drain for 20m increase to around 0.27W here

6) goto 4 ( you should see again something like 0.13W )

 

You can repeat this a few times to confirm the results.

 

Now here if I continue the test, without plugging the AC back in, the power drain, will reach over >1.2W/h at some point.

 

It would be nice if you can experiment with this in both OS'es.

I did it with 20m runs bc I need the box, probably different runs, 30m/1h/2h etc would give us some

better clues.

 

Best regards & Thank you all.

 

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389 Posts

03-06-2021

Germany

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  • Message 439 of 841

Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 19:34 PM

One more thing,

 

I have my older Nitro5 with me too, which has already a very bad BAT, sold as a gaming machine with a dGPU too,

without any Linux support and a half-broken BIOS in Linux. That box has a Ryzen 3750h, I used it as a portable-compile 

machine, and never cared about S3 consummation. I put it to sleep for 3h ( same as the P14s ) to see how much it consumes,

compared to the newer box. Well, even with half-broken BIOS for Linux, a bad battery, it eats 1.12W in *3h*.. 

 

.. Just saying ...

 

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389 Posts

03-06-2021

Germany

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Re:T14 AMD battery drain in standby (Linux)

2021-06-25, 20:57 PM

@ srgLoop wrote:

I' be glad to, but I' afraid that I don' see any options to edit the thread title or the initial post. Are you sure that this is possible here?

 

Hmm, it looks like only mods can change/move topics :/

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