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14 Posts

04-11-2008

Dallas

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-17, 18:45 PM

add me to list of T61P owners who are VERY unhappy about this. I dont care if I have to do a complete reinstall and apply setting to BIOS. I want 3G speed. This is bunk-ola. SSD prices have fallen to a point where I can get a nice 128GB drive at a price that works for me. I do massive application and data and would definitley benefit from SSD Sata II speeds.

 

I am not going to buy another Lenovo at any price when I can get some no name laptop that out performs mine for less than 1/2 the price.

 

Let's get with it Lenovo......uhm, NOW. Go ask your girlfreinds over at Intel, maybe they can help you get this to work via Bios update so they can sell some X25m's. In a bad economy only the most fit companies will survive, this is not the way to acheive that goal.

Message Edited by treydur on 02-17-2009 12:46 PM
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29 Posts

08-29-2008

Australia

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-18, 3:50 AM

Mark_Lenovo wrote:

All,

 

I've investigated this issues at length through engineering and have received the following explaination of SATA data rates available on the Santa Rosa ('61) and current Montevina based systems (T400/T500, W500, W700, etc)...

 

"For Santa Rosa-based systems, the Intel ICH8 supports a SATA bus speed of up to 3.0 Gb/s. Lenovo made a design decision to prioritize maintaining compatibility with Ultrabay disk drives, which are connected via a SATA-to-PATA conversion chip which could not handle a 3.0 Gb/s SATA bus speed reliably. Therefore the system was standardized to 1.5 Gb/s.."


 

Mark,

 

I am afraid that I do not understand the quoted explanation for limiting the SATA bus to 1.5 Gb/s.

 

The Ultrabay in the 60 and 61 series of Thinkpads is connected to a PATA port and not to a SATA port. This is also the reason why the Ultrabay SATA adapters contain SATA to ATA/133 bridge electronics, while the Ultrabay PATA adapters are simply mechanical adapters.

 

The above construction is the reason why a SATA disk will perform better when run in the "main bay", as compared to in the Ultrabay (using an Ultrabay SATA adapter causes overhead in the SATA to ATA conversion thus degrading performance even lower than of the 1.5Gb/s SATA port in the main bay).

 

I imagine that the reason for this Ultrabay design decision, is that the optical drives at the time when the 60 and 61 series were designed were PATA and not SATA.

 

However, back to the main issue.

 

As the Ultrabay is connected to the IDE port on the Intel ICH8 chipset, I cannot understand how reducing the SATA bus speed (on the SATA port) has any impact whatsoever on the stability of running SATA disks in the Ultrabay.

 

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8 Posts

02-18-2009

Austin, TX

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-18, 5:33 AM
What message is Lenovo trying to send here?  

 

The Santa Rosa Thinkpads have an obvious firmware bug.  Meanwhile every other vendor has Santa Rosa notebooks that function correctly.


The bad publicity from this could easily exceed the cost of having an engineer fix the firmware.  SSDs are only becoming increasingly popular, so more and more customers will encounter this.  It could seriously harm Thinkpad's reputation among performance-conscious customers.  

 

I believe Lenovo is miscalculating.

 

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14 Posts

04-11-2008

Dallas

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  • Message 64 of 254

Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-18, 11:14 AM

jketzetera

 

the way your post reads, it seems to say the 2nd bay is the only bay that is 1.5, I believe you will find both primary and secondary are limited.

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29 Posts

08-29-2008

Australia

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-18, 12:08 PM

wrote:

jketzetera

 

the way your post reads, it seems to say the 2nd bay is the only bay that is 1.5, I believe you will find both primary and secondary are limited.


 

I probably should have expressed myself more clearly.

 

Drives inserted in the main bay are connected to a SATA port with 1.5 Gb/s maximum transfer speed.

 

Drives inserted in the Ultrabay are connected to a PATA/IDE port (I am guessing it has a maximum of 133 MB/s in transfer speed).So, the Ultrabay is actually limited to an even lower transfer speed than 1.5 Gb/s.

 

Since the Ultrabay has no apparent connection with the SATA-part of the motherboard (remember that any SATA disk inserted into the Ultrabay utilizes the bridge electronics in the Ultrabay adapter itself that converts SATA to IDE), I cannot understand why the Ultrabay is stated as the reason for limiting the main bay SATA speed to 1.5 GB/s.

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29 Posts

08-29-2008

Australia

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-18, 13:27 PM

If it really is the case that the ICH8 chipset is unable to run the SATA-port at 3.0 Gb/s while simultaneously utilizing the PATA/IDE-port, then I do not think we can fault Lenovo for the current situation (we can fault them for the poor communication surrounding this issue but that is another thing altogether).

 

If Intel's chipset simply is unable to perform according to its rated specification, then there is little that Lenovo can do. Also, do not forget that SATA optical drives are relatively new.

 

However, given that there does not seem to be complaints on other manufacturers notebooks (that also use ICH8 and have optical and extra hard drive bays) having their SATA-ports restricted to 1.5 Gb/s, I am unsure if it is Intel's chipset that is unable to perform according to specifications.

 

Also, Mark or someone else from Lenovo should give a new official statement on this issue, as the current statement is either incorrect or is omitting crucial details.

 

 

Message Edited by jketzetera on 02-18-2009 05:30 AM
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38 Posts

01-05-2009

USA

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-18, 13:34 PM

>> Also, Mark or someone else from Lenovo should give a new official statement on this issue, as the current statement is either incorrect or is omitting crucial details.

 

 Yeah, right.

So we could all move on to Intel's customer feedback website and bug them, instead of Lenovo.

I think it's better to leave official statement as it is - this way everybody's covered, including Intel.

And bunch of tech-savvy customers can cry out loud while Lenovo can and will, even in court, maintain that 

'their products function according to specifications'.  Everybody's happy.

 

Oh, I guess we should go bug Intel along with Dell's Precision M4300 customers, for example, who experience

the same issues. Good thread here : 

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=478660&sid=fae7aefcd7af253b163feb9d25cab5e3#p478660

Message Edited by kotovsky7 on 02-18-2009 06:14 AM
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2029 Posts

12-02-2007

Australia

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-18, 13:14 PM
------------------------------
I don't work for Lenovo
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8 Posts

02-18-2009

Austin, TX

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-19, 7:14 AM

EDIT:  nevermind this question.  NCQ seems to work fine on my new X25m.

 

 

 

Thanks for investigating the transfer rate, Mark.

 

Could you find out if there's a similar situation regarding Native Command Queueing (NCQ) support?

 

Intel Storage Matrix reports that NCQ is disabled on my T61p, even though the main hard drive (HTS721010G9SA00) should support it.   Earlier in this thread, a user named Krawica posted a similar report.

 

Thanks in advance for anything you can find out!

Message Edited by RyanClark on 02-22-2009 07:51 PM
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5 Posts

01-20-2009

Slovenia

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Re: t61 does not operate at SATA-II speeds?!

2009-02-19, 10:20 AM

Mark: Thank you for your answer, but I have something to add here. Altough I'm satisfied that someone is looking into this matter, I'm not happy with your answer. As user named jketzera said, Lenovo's official answer is inconsistent and not logical. Now, this will sound as ultimatum, but if there won't be any further (more logical and with better explanation) updates to this issue, Lenovo just lost another good customer. I'll be looking into this matter for two more weeks, after that I'll sell my Thinkpad and stop buying Thinkpads for my company for a while. The thing is, I was staying with Thinkpads since T40 series and I find that quality of the product is slowly degrading, customer support is nothing like in old times and this issue only adds it up. When I buy a laptop which costs twice as much as comparable laptops on market, I expect very good quality and support, which Lenovo apparently doesn't provide.

 

This is really a shame, because on the other side I'm happy with a lot of other properties of Thinkpads, like keyboard, casing, Ultrabay option. But with engineering flops like this one it's just not worth it. As I said before, If I buy a high-grade/high-price laptop, I expect a lot more than this. 

 

Best regards,

Klemen Peterlin

Message Edited by krawica on 02-20-2009 05:46 AM
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