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SeniorGuru
Posts: 2,320
Registered: ‎06-13-2013
Location: US
Views: 451
Message 31 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

I've now had a chance to re-run Crystal DiskMark 6.0.2 (note that their latest available version is actually 8.0.0) which is the same version you tested with.  And it does look like they interchanged the contents of the middle rows 2 and 3, perhaps so that the magnitudes of the numbers displayed reduce as you go down from top to bottom,  Or maybe it's just my results that do that.  But no question they've re-titled the rows and for me interchanged rows 2 and 3 from verison 5 of the program.

 

So here's my new Crystal 6.0.2 results with my own Samsung 850 Pro running SATA3 AHCI speed in my Lenovo Thinkpad P70 (i7-6700HQ CPU, Intel CM236 Skylake PCH-H chipset).

 

Crystal_Samsung-850-Pro-no-rapid-mode-2.jpg

 

And just for comparison with M.2 PCIe NVMe speed here is my Samsung 950 Pro:

 

Crystal_Samsung-950-Pro_C-2.jpg

Bcn
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Posts: 20
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Location: FR
Views: 430
Message 32 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

Thanks for the Crsytaldiskmark update! Obviusly, we can't really compare the results with mine since its sata 2 vs 3.

-Yes, all three SATA connectors on the motherboard should be SATA2 speed and AHCI-capable. The question is are there any BIOS settings or indications that AHCI isn't enabled.  Certainly Magician tells us it's not, which is a mystery :

Weird thing is I only saw 2 Sata connectors on the board, 1 for the HDD, 1 for the optical drive or SSD now. The only indications in the bios for AHCI are on the 2 screenshots in my album : "sata ahci enable" and "ahci hdd: SSD" in the boot sequence. I didn't find anything else. I read that the previous version of Magician had a bugged where it would say AHCI is desactivated even if it was but it's supposed to have been fixed with the last one.

 

-Nevertheless your original screenshot showed that you did NOT have the STORAHCI StartrOverride key.  So how could you have changed it, or did you create it? : I didn't do anything, it's true that I didn't have the folder but now I have it. I added a screenshot in the album, below the previous one.

Of course I tried once again to switch the specified keys to 0, including this one, but no change.

 

Can you please post an updated screenshot now that you have installed Intel RST : I did as well, under the previous one (5th pic)

 

 - It would be interesting for you to swap the target connected SATA controller sockets on the motherboard that these cables connect to : I did it from the start, the bench results were nearly the same. I added to the pics what the bios says on Sata 1 and 2 suffixes when swapping.

I also added the bench for the HDD at the end of the album (2 because of the swap). The HDD is empty for now.

 

- For the 1809, I was basically looking around and windows updated proposed it. But for some reasons it failed to update twice, with a 0x8024200D error. After a reboot and some check-up, it finally worked. I don't think it'll change anything though.

 

- I had the same thinking regarding the safe mode bench. I'm gonna try to disconnect periphericals and run it to see if there is any difference. Otherwise I have no clue.

 

- I followed the guide on your article but my partition was already aligned.

SeniorGuru
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Views: 426
Message 33 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58


@Bcn wrote:

 

-Yes, all three SATA connectors on the motherboard should be SATA2 speed and AHCI-capable. The question is are there any BIOS settings or indications that AHCI isn't enabled.  Certainly Magician tells us it's not, which is a mystery :

Weird thing is I only saw 2 Sata connectors on the board, 1 for the HDD, 1 for the optical drive or SSD now. The only indications in the bios for AHCI are on the 2 screenshots in my album : "sata ahci enable" and "ahci hdd: SSD" in the boot sequence. I didn't find anything else. I read that the previous version of Magician had a bugged where it would say AHCI is desactivated even if it was but it's supposed to have been fixed with the last one.



The hardware maintenance manual shows that there are THREE onboard SATA connectors, identified as (10) in the picture below.

 

M58_motherboard.jpg

 

Also, the photo you have of what your BIOS shows for SATA DRIVE 0, 1 and 3 looks identical to what you had before.  Is this the old photo or a new one after you'd swapped cables going to the two connectors?  Is there supposed to be a second photo reflecting the swap experiment?  I don't see it.  Can you please post both photos, showing both configurations when you reverse the sockets that the data cables are connected to.

 

Also, if the CDROM drive is SATA (which I believe it must be), is its data cable connected to the motherboard right now or not?  The photos show "AHCI CDROM" in the boot sequence but no PNP device name next to it.  So does that mean you have it disconnected at the moment?

 

Did you take the SATA data cable from the CDROM and use it for the SSD?  You have three SATA drives in total, i.e. the SSD (actually capable of SATA3) and WDC spinner, as well as the CDROM.  So in theory all three should be connected with SATA data cables to the three SATA connectors on the motherboard, as well as three SATA power connectors to the PSU.  If the PSU doesn't provide a third SATA connector midway on a folded-up cable you can just buy a "Y-connector" to provide two SATA power connectors at one end from a single SATA power connector at the other end.  But in theory the motherboard has THREE SATA CONNECTOR SOCKETS (10).

 

Is there a reason you're running an older version of Samsung Magician, if you believe it had a bug that showed "AHCI deactivated" even though AHCI was enabled and active? Why haven't you upgraded to the latest version to see what it says?

 

All indications from your photos are that the available BIOS ATA/AHCI-settings are in the correct AHCI state.  And the sequential read/write speeds from Crystal seem pretty close to 300MB/s, so the drive does seem (at least for that number) to be performing at SATA2 speed.  It certainly looks like you've now got Intel RST 11 installed, so it should be running.  I think the other IDE controllers shown in Device Manager are for the floppy drive and parallel (LPT) connectors on the motherboard, but I'm not sure.

 

I don't remember exactly what your previous photo showed before you installed Intel RST, because you've replaced it. I'd like to see it again, to compare both before and after.  Certainly there is now what I would have expected after installing Intel RST (i.e. a different name and the proper driver details) but I actually thought all of the four (?) previous line items would now have been consolidated into the one ICH10 line entry.  That's what my memory has always occurred in the past, when there were multiple "ATA channel x" lines before installing Intel RST.  After the Intel RST install all of those individual ATA lines disappeared and there was just one single Intel ICHxx line remaining, with its driver being the Intel RST driver, obviously representing the fact that Intel RST is handling all of the individual SATA AHCI controllers now.

 

So this photo of yours does look a bit unexpected and strange to me.  Can you please post BOTH the earlier photo again as well as the after photo?

 

Don't know what else we can do.

Bcn
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Message 34 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

This isn't the correct picture for the m58 6303, mine has only 2 sata slots (stated in the manual, just checked it, added the pic.) But I guess the 3rd sata slot indicated in the bios is the eSata.

Yes I removed the optical drive to put the SSD since there are only 2 sata slots.

 

Is there supposed to be a second photo reflecting the swap experiment?  I don't see it

Sorry, I forgot to add it. There is one now. You'll see that there is only the SSD (Sata drive 0 - 250gb sata 1) as I redid the benchmarks with only the SSD connected, on each port (kinda running out of ideas). I got the same results as the previus ones with both hdd+sdd connected. I also did the bench with only the SSD in safe mode and the results were the same as the previous ones with both hdd+ssd in safe mode (still higher than in non-safe mode). So the HDD has nothing to do with this.
Also, sata drive 0 = sata 1 = sata slot 1 and sata drive 1 = sata 2 = sata slot 2. So basically nothing to see here.

 

I'm not running an older version of Magician, I have the latest. I said that people have reported a bug on the previous version of it, version 4. This bug was Magician saying AHCI desactivated even if it was. I didn't find any report of this bug with the latest version, the one I have. So it's either the same bug as in the last version but other people don't have it (which wouldn't make sense considering the number of people having evo ssds and Magician) or it isn't a bug and despite everything else the SSD isn't in AHCI (which doesn't make sense either).

 

I don't remember exactly what your previous photo showed before you installed Intel RST, because you've replaced it :

The picture is still there, just before the one with intel RST, it's just small. It says "contrôleur AHCI SATA Standard". I don't have a picture with the proprerties of the old one tough.

No idea why there are multiple lines as you said.

I'm gonna try to install another version of Intel RST, to see if it changes anything. Otherwise, I guess we tried everything. I sent an email to Samsung (because the service when you call the french number doesn't manage the SSDs...), I don't expect much from it but at least I would have tried.

SeniorGuru
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Views: 413
Message 35 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

Oops... my mistake.  I stopped at the first motherboard picture I saw as I was scrolling down the large PDF.  You're right.  There is a later picture (Figure 42) which is for the 6303 board, which is smaller and different.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

So there are only two SATA connectors, and no eSATA, on the 6303 board. I'm guessing it's just a common BIOS for the family of machines, and the mention of SATA Drive 0, SATA Drive 1, and SATA Drive 3, are for the larger boards that actually do have three SATA connectors as well as an eSATA connector.  It's unclear if the third SATA connector (had it existed on the larger board) would have been named SATA Drive 2, implying that SATA Drive 3 is eSATA.  But I don't see an eSATA connector on the 6303 board, so why would your BIOS need to present SATA Drive 3 at all?  Mystifying.

 

Still not sure if your latest photos actually show what the BIOS says if you move the SSD data connector over to the other motherboard socket.  In other words, if SATA1 and SATA2 are simply sequence numbers, then depending on which socket you have the drive plugged into I'd expect to see either:

 

(a) SATA Drive 0  250GB SATA1 (when plugged into the left socket #1), or

(b) SATA Drive 1 250GB SATA2 (when plugged into the right socket #2)

 

But if the suffix actually is meant to describe the "speed" of the drive, you'd expect it to show either SATA1 or SATA2 from both sockets.

 

Did you actually try the two sockets for the SSD?  Do the two photos reflect that, or simply the removal of the WDC spinner and testing the speed of the SSD when the WDC drive is not connected?

Bcn
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Message 36 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

On page 106 of the manual, there is a "12. esata connector". And there is a connector inside the pc box.

Yes I tried both sockets for the SSD. I added a picture with the swap with ssd+hdd connected so you can see.

 

Now, things are going crazy : I installed another driver from the same forum, v11.2.0.1006 (https://www.win-raid.com/t2f23-Intel-RST-RSTe-Drivers-newest-v-WHQL-v-WHQL.html), which is supposed to be older than the one I had (even Windows said it when I replaced it). Both support ICH10.

 

The thing is, I get better results with this one; as you'll see in the 2 pictures I added below the crystaldiskmark others:

- When running in "normal mode" (meaning no safe mode):  sequential are the same, 4kibq878 read & write are much better than normal mode and a bit better than in safe mode vs the previous driver (read: 205.2 vs 166.7 vs 201.9 respectively), 4kibq32t1 are in between normal and safe mode. Last line is basically the same as normal mode with previous driver.

- When running in safe mode, sequential are the same, everything else is better.

 

So that's basically impossible to understand. There is still the difference between normal & safe mode but this older driver seems to perform better.
Crystaldiskmark results are still lower than what guy in the video with the same SSD had (who I guess had the generic driver) and Samsung Magician still says that AHCI is desactived.

I'll take a look if there are other drivers available for ICH10, which could also perform better, but I think there aren't.

 

Edit: Ok that's even weirder. I did a bench with AS SSD to confirm the difference (the other AS SSD screenshot I had in the album was with the generic driver) and everything is the same except the 4k 64thrd which is worse, especially on read : 157.41 vs 356.99. I'm gonna give up, it doesn't make any sense.

 

Mod:  while not totally solved, this post comes close, and I'm marking it as the Solution.  That way it will rank higher in search results, and be more visible to other owners. 

 

SeniorGuru
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Location: US
Views: 395
Message 37 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

On the version of the online HMM which I am looking at, on page 106 the Figure 42 they have presented does not show eSATA on the motherboard.  And item (12) is identified as the 24-pin power socket, which is certainly what it looks like in the picture.  And there is no other item on the board which is the same size as the two SATA connectors, which is what I would have expected the eSATA connector to also look like.

 

M58_6303-board.jpg

Bcn
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Message 38 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

We don't have the same paging it seems, I downloaded the PDF. Look at page 102 for yours, you'll see itesata.PNG

 I did some other tests with AS SSD and Magician Bench. I added all the pictures related to them in the album :

- AS SSD : everything is basically the same between the generic driver and the 2 other drivers, except the 4k 64thrd which is surprisingly x2+ better with the generic driver, especially on read : 157.41 vs 159.05 vs 356.99.  So this doesn't make any sense.

- Magician : I did a new bench with the generic driver. Comparing it to the first one with also the generic drive, seq are the same, random are a bit better (15k and 14k vs 18k and 17k)  but below the results with the other 2 drivers. The most performing driver here regarding random is the 11.2 (which is also the better one with Crystaldiskmark). So I'll stick with this one for now, despite what AS SSD says. I'll now wait if Samsung can provide help but I doubt it.

SeniorGuru
Posts: 2,320
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Location: US
Views: 381
Message 39 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

Aha...

 

The picture on page 102 is of the rear of the case, which actually shows the external face of the built-in motherboard ports that you would plug external cables into.  You're right... there IS an eSATA connector, on the physical motherboard's rear-facing external I/O port interface.

 

I was looking at the board layout itself on page 106, which is the smaller motherboard for the 6303 machine, similar to what is shown in Figure 5 on page 72, for the larger motherboard used in the M58 tower machine... which I had mistakenly not noticed was not for the 6303.  And on this larger motherboard there is actually an onboard eSATA connector (in the cluster with the three SATA connectors).

 

Note that on the rear I/O connector panel of this tower machine there is NO built-in eSATA connector from the motherboard itself. And yet the motherboard itself provides an eSATA connector.  I believe the expectation is that there would be an optional eSATA expansion slot add-on which would fit into one of the four expansion slot opening on the back, and which would have a cable on its interior that would plug into this eSATA connector socket on the motherboard.  This is like expansion slot add-ons which provide additional USB 2.0 or 3.0 ports on the front or rear of the tower case, and which on their inside have a cable that is meant to be plugged into a motherboard header connector for additional USB 2.0 or 3.0 ports via this method.

 

But it appears with the smaller 6303 machine they actually provided an eSATA port on that rear I/O panel of the motherboard.  There are only two expansion slots available with the 6303 (one likely used for a PCIe x16 graphics card which might even be 2-slots wide, and the other for an old PCI card), so there really isn't much spare space for an eSATA add-on expansion insert as there would be on a tower.

 

Anyway, you're right.  The 6303 does also have an externally facing rear eSATA port from the external I/O panel of the motherboard itself. And the 6303 does only contain two onboard SATA connectors.

 

And apparently SATA1 and SATA2 are just sequential number/names assigned as a suffix to whichever drive happens to be plugged into the left and right SATA connectors... having nothing to do with the speed of either drive.

 

I guess we've tried our best, and the 11.2 Intel RST driver seems to provide the best performance you're going to get.  I did a bit of looking on the Interweb and I suspect we should probably be satisfied:

 

On SATA2, your 850 Evo will max out between 250-300 Mbps sequential read and write speeds.

On SATA3, your 850 Evo will max out between 500-520 Mbps.

 

Here's somebody else's benchmark tests who used AS SSD to benchmark a Samsung 840  both as SATA2 vs. SATA3.  You have an 850 EVO which presumably should be a bit faster.  Your results using "generic driver" with your 850 are superior to his results with his 840 (and who knows what driver), no matter that for some reason AHCI shows as "deactivated" in Magician.  Perhaps that explains why the generic driver appears superior to Intel RST (which expects AHCI to be "active" which maybe in truth it is simply not for some unknown reason).

 

Bcn
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Message 40 of 46

Re: Help for RAM & SSD Lenovo M58

Thanks for the explanation on the eSata, always nice to learn things.

I do confirm there is a X16 slot. I installed the following old GC there but then I couldn't get any display when I was connected to the normal Q45 chipset , benchmarks say it's even weaker than the Q45 and this PC only uses 1 screen so I removed it : https://picclick.com/HP-Nvidia-GeForce-7300-LE-PCI-E-256MB-VGA-282905836476.html

There is also a old PCI slot. I put a wifi card in it that I got from the same old PC but for some reason it wasn't really working so I removed it too.

 

Yes Sequential results were ok from the start, it's the rest that isn't. And seq don't matter much anyways, 4k is more important for day to day use.

Thanks for the bench of the 840. But it confirms that there is something wrong with the other 2 drivers since they do better in other bench but fail for the 4k in AS SSD. I don't understand why. 

 

And it wasn't the generic which appeared superior in the eyes Windows, it was the latest driver (2013) vs the 11.2 (2012), even tough the 11.2 performs better. Windows didn't say anything when I updated the generic to one or the other drivers.

 

My hypothesis is that the AHCI is not fully active somehow and that's why the results are lower than they should be & Magician saying it's not in AHCI. Or maybe despite the fact that the SSD was new, there is a problem with it and we searched for nothing haha.
I have another 850 evo (500go), which I got for a laptop, guess I'll waste some more time and bench it on this PC as well.

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