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2630 Posts

06-13-2013

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  • Message 21 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-04-22, 16:04 PM

@ freddellmeister wrote:

I noticed on my P51 I have the same issue as your P73, in discrete mode the panel hardware ID is AUO21EB and in

Hybrid Mode it is LEN40DB. this leads to being shown as generic PnP monitor in Device Manager.

then without hacking the Inf file I tried to update the Device Driver:

Selecting the name which corresponds to the display:

As neither are HDR panels, nothing really changed in my case. However if you look at the monitor inf file you see that it will install the ICM profile for your panel which has some dolby vision attributes.

So I would combine these two steps, Device Manager and Color Profile on your AUO Device to check if it makes a difference.

 

 

Just for closure on this particular subject, I tried to duplicate your scenario as pictured above. I think you must have skipped documenting a step somewhere, because I don't see how you got from one screenshot that showed the Generic PnP Monitor (i.e. still for the AUO hardware) and then the next screenshot magically shows the Wide Angle etc. monitor (which is now the LEN4124 hardware).

 

Also, I have no idea how you then got into update drivers for the Wide Angle (i.e. LEN4124) hardware and were shown the a list of manufacturers, etc., for you to choose the properly named monitor within Lenovo.

 

Anyway, I had my own secondary problem, which I ended up resolving, and in the process of doing that everything else cleared up.

 

So, first, I went back to hybrid. And the AUO monitor (Generic PnP) returned.  I then simply tried to run the MONITOR.INF exe installer, but nothing changed. I think we're agreed that absent the additional two lines (which you had suggested previously, to hack the INF itself in order to add the AUO hardware along with LEN4124 and LEN4125 which are already present) which I had not added, this approach was not going to accomplish anything. Only if the AUO lines are added to the INF would this driver install succeed, and I hadn't done that.

 

However simultaneously, in Device Manager I also showed an item in the "Other Hardware" group (i.e. hardware that does not have a driver installed), for Intel HD Audio. Of course this support for HDMI audio when using the Intel HD Graphics (because of hybrid) should have been present from the factory Lenovo image, but obviously was not. Perhaps it would have been installed with normal Windows Update following OOBE, if I had ever run hybrid on this P73. But I had immediately gone to discrete, so there was never an opportunity to update the Intel HD Graphics driver which would almost certainly include install for Intel HD Audio.

 

So I downloaded the Intel HD Graphics driver installer from the P73 support site, and manually ran it. This actually DID resolve the missing driver problem for Intel HD Audio, so that's one issue now gone.  But more remarkably, now magically the Generic PnP Monitor hardware had changed by itself into Wide Screen etc.!!  And looking deeper, sure enough the Hardware ID for the laptop monitor was now LEN4124!!  All by itself! Perhaps it was the result of the combined running of MONITOR.INF installer plus this Intel HD Graphics driver installer, or maybe just the latter.

 

But whatever the explanation, everything now looked good in Device Manager. Intel HD Audio missing driver is resolved, and the sound device is now fully installed where it belongs in Sound. Also, the monitor now appears correctly as Wide Angle (i.e. LEN4124). WHEW!!!

 

Reboot (still in hybrid).

 

Now check Settings -> Display, expecting to see "Use HDR".  Unfortunately NOT!!!!!!!  How can that possibly be???  The now expected "Stream HDR = YES" in Windows HD Color Settings but the other two items showing NO. And still NO primary "Use HDR" on/off switch.

 

So, for me the P73 behavior with LEN4124 is absolutely 100% failure to support HDR, both with discrete (as occurs on the P17 with LEN4125 as well) and even with hybrid (which differs from the P17 where at least "Use HDR" appears for LEN4125 when in hybrid).

 

So the story just gets worse when the P73 is included.

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  • Message 22 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-04-22, 16:34 PM

@ freddellmeister wrote:

On a third P51 I have, connected to an OLED TV, I get:

Stream HDR Video No      

Use HDR                Yes

Use WCG Apps      Yes

 

Stream HDR Video seems like a special capability, only for the built in panel. (Dolby Vision)

On Your P70 with external display, do the Use HDR Option come on?

 

Are you actually asking about my P70 (with M3000M NVidia graphics)?  Or my P17 (with T2000 NVidia graphics)? You probably meant P17.

 

I actually do have an LG OLED TV I have connected to and could re-test to document results with a useful set of screenshots. But for now, I've been using my LG HDR 4K monitor, which has behaved as expected, as the external HDMI monitor. And it DOES show "Use HDR".

 

 

And in fact when I've played a "4K Demo" video from YouTube and chosen clips that are HDR and even Dolby Vision (using CyberLink PowerDVD 20 Ultra), the "HDR" badge appears in the upper-right corner of the LG HDR 4K monitor, just as it would show up in the upper-right corner of an LG OLED TV. I don't believe the LG monitor supports Dolby Vision though, so I really should re-test using the LG OLED TV.

 

I will do some more playing with the external monitors.  But that's just for curiosity and interest. It isn't really pertinent to the main thrust of the problems being discussed on this thread, which pertain specifically to the behavior of the P17 and its handling of the supposedly HDR-capable (although 8-bit) LEN4125 laptop screen, while operating as either discrete or hybrid and attempting to present HDR and optionally Dolby Vision.

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2630 Posts

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  • Message 23 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-02, 11:10 AM

Well, it looks like Lenovo has decided to flush this problem with a "note". They've updated the PSREF for both P15 and P17 to now show that for the non-OLED 4K HDR laptop displays there is NO HDR SUPPORT IN DISCRETE GRAPHICS MODE!! If you want HDR functionality YOU MUST RUN IN HYBRID MODE!!

 

So no matter how much money you spent on your NVidia graphics upgrade... if you didn't also buy the OLED screen then you cannot use the laptop screen in HDR mode with the NVidia GPU. You must use the built-in Intel HD Graphics for the laptop screen if you want HDR.

 

And of course, the OLED screen (10-bit color, hardware ID 4141) is only available for purchase with the P15, not the P17. The non-OLED IPS screen (8-bit color, hardware ID 4125) is available for purchase on both P15 and P17.

 

(1) Updated support FAQ regarding HDR limitation for non-OLED screen requiring running in hybrid graphics mode:

 

 

(2) P15 purchase options for Display, and updated PSREF now showing a NOTE that requires hybrid graphics to support HDR for non-OLED screen:

 

 

 

(3) P17 purchase options for Display, and updated PSREF now showing a NOTE that requires hybrid graphics to support HDR for non-OLED screen:

 

 

 

 

It's unclear to me why the OLED screen is only an option on the P15 and not P17, but perhaps there is some kind of manufacturing problem. Hard to believe, since OLED panels are obviously available in numerous larger sizes for TV's. Could maybe be a parts sourcing issue for Lenovo.  Who knows why this is the case.

 

But it certainly is disappointing, given that I've now purchased the P17. Had I known all of this before purchase (i.e. had the online sales documentation presented this limitation back in February) I might have considered going with the P15 instead of the P17, and opted for the OLED screen even though it was another $250. I definitely want to run HDR mode on the laptop screen and also run in discrete graphics mode to gain the benefit of the NVidia GPU I paid lots of dollars for, for the laptop screen and HDR color. I fully expected that the P17 would support it, since it advertised "HDR, Dolby Vision" and the "note" was not present back in February.

 

Very disappointed with this outcome.

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  • Message 24 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-02, 11:23 AM

Note that the purchase options for Display (in the pictures shown above) does not have the same "note" as is shown in the PSREF.  There is no obvious difference between the IPS (non-OLED) screen and OLED screen aside from price, brightness NITS, touchscreen, etc., with BOTH SCREENS SHOWING "HDR, DOLBY VISION".

 

I feel this to be very misleading and incomplete. There should also be the same "note" present advising the shopper who is customizing and deciding what to buy, at least for the P15 where there are two 4K HDR screen options. One choice works in HDR mode with both hybrid and discrete graphics, whereas the other only works in HDR mode with hybrid graphics. That's what the PSREF note now says, and I feel the exact same caveat should also be very plainly presented in the customization dialog when shopping and customizing the purchase.

 

And for the P17, where there is no OLED screen even available, even more reason why the shopper should be fully aware that with the IPS 4K HDR screen there is no ability to use NVidia graphics for the laptop screen (i.e. discrete graphics mode) and also get HDR and Dolby Vision. You must run hybrid graphics to get HDR and Dolby Vision.

 

This major limitation which Lenovo now "admits" in writing was only recently added to the PSREF in response to my support ticket and communication with internal Lenovo NC engineering.

 

Again, all very disappointing since I've already purchased the P17. And I had absolutely no expectation of ever using hybrid graphics, not when running portable and laptop screen only, nor when running in powered office mode with an additional external HDMI monitor connected.

 

Oh well. Live and learn.

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  • Message 25 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-02, 12:03 PM

@ DSperber wrote:

Well, it looks like Lenovo has decided to flush this problem with a "note". They' updated the PSREF for both P15 and P17 to now show that for the non-OLED 4K HDR laptop displays there is NO HDR SUPPORT IN DISCRETE GRAPHICS MODE!! If you want HDR functionality YOU MUST RUN IN HYBRID MODE!!

 

So no matter how much money you spent on your NVidia graphics upgrade... if you didn' also buy the OLED screen then you cannot use the laptop screen in HDR mode with the NVidia GPU. You must use the built-in Intel HD Graphics for the laptop screen if you want HDR.

 

And of course, the OLED screen (10-bit color, hardware ID 4141) is only available for purchase with the P15, not the P17. The non-OLED IPS screen (8-bit color, hardware ID 4125) is available for purchase on both P15 and P17.

 

(1) Updated support FAQ regarding HDR limitation for non-OLED screen requiring running in hybrid graphics mode:

 

 

(2) P15 purchase options for Display, and updated PSREF now showing a NOTE that requires hybrid graphics to support HDR for non-OLED screen:

 

 

 

(3) P17 purchase options for Display, and updated PSREF now showing a NOTE that requires hybrid graphics to support HDR for non-OLED screen:

 

 

 

 

It' unclear to me why the OLED screen is only an option on the P15 and not P17, but perhaps there is some kind of manufacturing problem. Hard to believe, since OLED panels are obviously available in numerous larger sizes for TV'. Could maybe be a parts sourcing issue for Lenovo.  Who knows why this is the case.

 

 

The 15" OLED panels are manufactured by Samsung. All of the laptop manufacturers using OLED 15" screens use this supplier albeit with different configurations

of touch and non-touch varieties. The OLED multi-touch panels have their own issues with regard to some people being able to see the enabling touch grid at normal viewing distances. This shows up as either "dots" or faint lines. Prior 15" IPS touch panels did not exhibit this behavior. Regardless, the color on these panels is quite awesome when viewing HDR10 and DV movies. 


P53 XEON 2276 BIOS 1.28 OLED UHD 4K Multi-touch display, 96GB RAM, RTX5000, RAID 1, 1TB x 2 Samsung PM981, 1TB PM981, WWAN
P70 XEON 1505, BIOS 2.35, 4k Display, 64GB, M3000M NVIDIA GPU, RAID1 1TB Samsung PM981 PCIe-NVMe SSD x 2, 2x Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SSD. EM7455 WWAN
P1. BIOS 1.25,Xeon Processor, 4k UHD IPS multi-touch display, 32GB, PM981 1TB x 2, RAID1

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  • Message 26 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-02, 18:19 PM

I don't really understand technically why HDR would work in Hybrid Mode and not in Discrete Mode.

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  • Message 27 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-02, 20:06 PM

@ freddellmeister wrote:

I don' really understand technically why HDR would work in Hybrid Mode and not in Discrete Mode.

 

For the laptop screen the huge difference in these two modes is the GPU which manages the laptop screen. Hybrid uses the Intel HD Graphics and discrete uses the NVidia. Here is the "explanation" I received as to why this is significant:

 

"Regarding HDR, here is the feedback I got from Japan.  Basically, there is no fix except to use Hybrid mode if you want HDR.

 

Gfx team recognized this as H/W restriction that all HDR panels brightness control by PWM on hybrid mode but nVIDIA doesn’t have PWM control method.

Gfx team is updating PSREF to add a comment HDR is available only at Hybrid mode."

 

 

Note that an external monitor ALWAYS uses the NVidia graphics (if present), no matter hybrid or discrete. And in my case I have a 27" LG HDR 4K monitor.  So during my testing while running in discrete mode the HDR-nature and  functionality of the external LG HDR 4K monitor IS fully supported by Windows, as I've shown in earlier screenshots. The "Use HDR" switch IS presented for what Windows considers "Monitor 2", and when set to ON actually does cause the "HDR badge" to display briefly in the upper-right corner of the external monitor screen. And at the same time still running in discrete mode there is NO "Use HDR" switch presented by Windows for what it considers "Monitor 1", i.e. the internal laptop screen.

 

I've also tested with a 55" LG OLED C7 TV as the "external monitor". Works exactly the same way the 27" LG HDR 4K monitor does, in that again the "Use HDR" switch is presented. And when the "Use HDR" switch is turned on the "HDR badge" also displays briefly in the upper-right corner of the TV screen.

 

I note that I was using YouTube and CyberLink PowerDVD Ultra 20 (with its ability to play directly from YouTube) to test HDR and "streaming video". I had selected a clip (Will Smith in "Gemini Man) that was purportedly in BOTH (a) HDR 4K, and (b) Dolby Vision. But I believe the LG monitor only supports HDR10, and not Dolby Vision. So I never had an expectation of seeing any "Dolby Vision badge" even though PowerDVD was probably presenting the YouTube clip in HDR and Dolby Vision when using the LG monitor.

 

I did, however, expect to see the "Dolby Vision badge" on my LG OLED TV when playing this clip, since the LG OLED TV absolutely DOES support Dolby Vision as well as HDR.  And it is absolutely true that when playing Dolby Vision content on the LG OLED TV the "Dolby Vision badge" is definitely presented (instead of HDR)  But when I had the LG OLED TV connected to my P17 I never saw the "Dolby Vision badge" when playing this test YouTube clip.  Still only the "HDR badge" appeared. I have no explanation for this failure, other than perhaps a problem with implementation of NVidia GPU on the P17 for an external display, not actually supporting Dolby Vision.

 

@Harrisb, you say you have an OLED panel in your P53. I'm assuming it also is Hardware ID 4141 as is the case in the P15? If not, what is its Hardware ID?  Also, do you have an external TV which is HDR/DV-capable that you can try using as an external HDMI monitor?

 

I would really like to get confirmation that HDR and/or Dolby Vision is absolutely presented, on both laptop OLED panel as well as external HDR/DV-capable TV, either from the same YouTube clip I've been working with as my streaming source, or perhaps some other MP4 video clip known to be HDR/DV. This would confirm that there is just something inherently flawed about how the P17 is obviously debilitated in its NVidia HDR/DV hardware/software implementation for 8-bit displays, while at the same time either P15 or P53 does not have the same debilitation for either internal OLED 10-bit panel or external 10-bit OLED TV.

 

 

Again, I feel Lenovo's explanation for all of this (about the inability for NVidia to control PWM for the laptop non-OLED panel) isn't accurate.  Could be that English is a second language perhaps, where this confusion stems. I always thought PWM had to do with fan speed control, and I have no understanding about the relevance of that acronnym to displays. But maybe it does. as it pertains to controlling brightness as it was expressed earlier (from Japan).

 

The fact that at least HDR (if not also Dolby Vision, which I could not demonstrate) is absolutely supported by the T2000 in the P17 for both external LG HDR 4K monitor as well as external LG OLED TV clearly shows that it is not the NVidia GPU itself which is incapable of controlling PWM as the "explanation" for why HDR is not supported by the NVidia GPU for the internal non-OLED laptop 8-bit 4125 laptop screen. It must be something inferior about the non-OLED laptop 8-bit screen itself which is really the culprit here, which is unable to have its "PWM controlled". Obviously that is not the case for the 10-bit external LG HDR 4K monitor or external LG OLED TV, both of which can present HDR from the very same P17 and T2000.

 

So there has to be some other more correctly expressed explanation why the implementation of non-OLED panel in the laptop (both P15 as well as P17) is preventing the NVidia GPU from supporting HDR on the non-OLED panel (via discrete mode) while at the same time fully supporting HDR on external displays. And yet, magically, there is no such issue for the exact same non-OLED panel when using the Intel HD Graphics (via hybrid mode)!!!

 

I would think this is a BIOS and NVidia driver issue, implementing discrete graphics and the NVidia GPU... specifically for the internal 8-bit vs. 10-bit laptop/external screen. Obviously there is absolutely no problem applying the very same NVidia GPU hardware and driver and BIOS in the very same P15/P17 to an externally HDMI connected 10-bit monitor/TV, and getting perfectly fine HDR support! And yet the same is not true with the internally connected supposedly HDR-capable laptop screen, albeit non-OLED 8-bit.

 

Why can the Intel HD Graphics provide HDR from the non-OLED 8-bit internal laptop screen but the NVidia GPU cannot?  That's the issue here. I think it's really that the NVidia GPU cannot support "HDR via dithering" for 8-bit displays while it can support "HDR via native" for 10-bit displays. At the same time its clear that Intel HD Graphics can and does support "HDR via dithering" for 8-bit displays as well as "HDR via native" for 10-bit displays.

 

Hard to believe NVidia GPU and driver doesn't support HDR via "dithering", but it would seem that's very relevant here.

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  • Message 28 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-03, 10:09 AM

Can you please put together links to the clips you would like someone to try and the expected outcome?

Maybe record a movie or capture screenshots.

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  • Message 29 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-03, 17:34 PM

@ freddellmeister wrote:

Can you please put together links to the clips you would like someone to try and the expected outcome?

Maybe record a movie or capture screenshots.

 

I imbedded the link to that Will Smith "Gemini Man" clip on YouTube in my previous post. It is here.  I found it by doing a search on YouTube for "4K Dolby demo", and there are other clips offered as well.

 

It purports to be provided in "4K HDR 60fps Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos". While in discrete graphics mode on the P17 I played it to my external LG HDR 4K, which correctly displayed the "HDR badge".  Similarly I played it to my external LG OLED C7 TV and again the "HDR badge" was displayed.

 

I had of course expected the LG OLED C7 TV to display the "Dolby Vision badge" instead of the "HDR badge" but that was not the case. I don't know if this is a problem with YouTube's delivery system, or an HDR/DV issue related to the P17 and NVidia graphics, and perhaps what it tells YouTube that it is capable of handling. It's already known it can't handle even just HDR on the 4K HDR 4125 IPS laptop screen but the externally connected HDMI monitor/TV definitely show the "Use HDR" switch which I've turned on.  This is why I was looking for a comprable test from a P15 or P53 which had the OLED panel and also set to discrete graphics mode, to see what happens on both (a) internal 4K HDR 4141 OLED laptop screen, and also (b) an externally HDMI connected monitor/TV capable of accepting at least HDR if not also Dolby Vision.

 

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  • Message 30 of 37

Re:HDR does NOT WORK on P17 in Discrete Graphics mode

2021-05-04, 11:13 AM
I connected my P53 (using the discrete RTX5000 adaptor) to my Sony XBR-65Z9D. The automatic picture settings became HDR10 when playing an HDR clip. The TV does not have external DV input capability, but when I play an HDR/DV stream, it will then go into DV mode.

P53 XEON 2276 BIOS 1.28 OLED UHD 4K Multi-touch display, 96GB RAM, RTX5000, RAID 1, 1TB x 2 Samsung PM981, 1TB PM981, WWAN
P70 XEON 1505, BIOS 2.35, 4k Display, 64GB, M3000M NVIDIA GPU, RAID1 1TB Samsung PM981 PCIe-NVMe SSD x 2, 2x Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SSD. EM7455 WWAN
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