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8095 Posts

11-19-2007

US

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-11, 22:17 PM

Veemexx,

  

As our engineering and development teams continue to review and work aspects of this, I'm going to defer additional updates by 24-48 hours.  tdesaix has addressed some of the questions around the chip identification, and the BIOS and driver updates seem to be working for many of the members.

 

Thank you again for posting some great pictures and for pressing ahead to ensure clarification and resolution on this issue, and thanks to tdesaix for sharing subject matter expertise on the chipset.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

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18 Posts

09-23-2008

US, TX

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Graphic Card Problem of W500 (Important)

2008-11-11, 22:40 PM

(I create this new thread to talk about the Graphic Card Problem of W500,

because the other thread is more than 16 pages, which is too long to read.)

 

Here, I collect some information I got from other thread and other web site:

 

1. Some one opened his W500. There is a amazing fact that no FireGL V5700(ID 9595) in this computer, but the Graphic Card Radeon HD 3650 (device ID 9591)

For Picture and Detail: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=319216

 

2.  According to the description from ATI, Mobility FireGL(FirePro) V5700 is based on Mobility Radeon HD 3650. But "Based on" does not mean they are the same.

 

3. The latest Bios Update and Driver can solve the problem on the appearance. You can

see a FireGL v5700 in Catalyst Control Center. But it just a soft-modded feint. The Device

ID is still 9591, the ISV video drivers still refuse to install, and the performance has no change.Furthermore, if you install the latest drivers (7vd535ww) manually, you can find that the latest driver is still designe for Radeon HD 3650. The only effort Lenovo made is to modify the Bios to let us believe we have a FireGL V5700.

 

4. According to the explanation of Lenovo, the description of Graphic Card was mistakenly

written in Bios. However, all evidences, physical marks on the GPU and soft description of drivers, shows that it is not mistakenly written. It is hard to believe that ATI mistakenly mark their Graphic card both on the back of the card and the drivers. If so, Lenovo shall

recall all W500, replace the Graphic Card, and ask ATI to compensate all losses.

 

5. Nobody, who currently using W500, solve this Graphic Card Problem as far as I know.

Many people, who read all of 16 pages of previous thread, cannot find an answer, but a modified Bios.

 

To Lenovo: 

 

I want to ask some questions to Lenovo. How could you know a Graphic Card, which is marked "ATI Radeon", is in fact a ATI FireGL?  Is there any document or notice from ATI

telling you that they mistakenly mark their FireGL card into Radeon?

We may trust you that the Bios is mistakenly written. But we cannot believe the physical mark on the back of the graphic card is also mistakenly written. 

 

To any employee of Lenovo who read this message, please let your top managers know that there is a serious problem occured in their product. One of the most important 

part of W500, Graphic Card, is not the one Lenovo promise to be.

(No matter mistakenly marked or not) 

Customers do not need to identify where is the fault. They just need their Graphic cards look and work as a FireGL V5700.

Your solution of this problem should be easy, time saving and no cost.

The solution should slove all of the problem of Graphic card, no matter the mark on card,

description in Bios, description in drivers, and the install refusal for ISV.

 

Your brand, Lenovo/Thinkpad/IBM, is currently losing your credit and brand loyalty rapidly. Please do count the cost between conducting a recall, or other solution, and losing your market credit. For the customers, who currently suffer this Graphic Card Problem of W500, their next laptop will never be a Lenovo product again. So do their friends and friends' friends.

 

I write this message because I still have hope in your band and believe lenovo is capable

to regain its credit.

 

 

Williamhuang

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31 Posts

10-18-2008

USA

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-11, 22:59 PM

Hello Mark_Lenovo,

 

Thanks for clarifying that tdesaix's response is not Lenovo's official response. He seemed to have hinted that we soft-modify the ISV drivers to make them work. I hope that is not Lenovo's official stance and recommendation.

 

I have the latest BIOS update and the ISV video drivers are not installing. What if other software vendors use the official ATI device ID - 9595 for the FireGL V5700? The video drivers are not going to be installed and the OpenGL hardware features are going to be disabled.

 

I do not wish to own a W500 that will continuously encounter problems with software throughout its life. This issue has caused a great impairment to my productivity and distress.

 

We appreciate your efforts in providing a proper and satisfying solution.

 

Regards,

Veemexx

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9 Posts

09-16-2008

Virginia

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-12, 0:03 AM

veemexx,

I think you put it perfectly!

Running CAD software with disabled features goes against the concept of an ISV laptop.

The W500 datasheet states that it is ISV certified for Autodesk, Solidworks, ProE, etc.

Obviously that isn't the case, and in good faith you would think they wouldn't release the

notebook until they could actually meet their marketing claims.

 

R/Ira

 

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98 Posts

10-25-2008

NYC

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-12, 1:39 AM

For what its worth,

I followed the procedure for both BIOS and driver update.

CCC now reports:

chipset: ATI Mobility FireGL 5700

device ID: 9591

vendor: 1002

SSID: 2126

SSVID: 17AA

BIOS Date (again, from CCC): 2008/10/15

 

However, I still have no graphics acceleration.

Maybe I need to sit through a few more reboots?

 

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32 Posts

08-28-2008

North Carolina

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-12, 2:36 AM

veemexx, i did not mean to hint that you should soft mod the driver.  I was simply explaining why the driver would not install without the correct SSID's so that technically inclined people on the forum would better understand and could verify for themselves what i was saying was true.   The ISVs will have been given the new driver with the new SSID included, hopefully they will start posting them soon.

 

And to clarify, I do not work for Lenovo so nothing i say is the Lenovo official response, I am just trying to help out everyone having issues.

 

Edit- i just checked solidworks site and they do not have the new driver posted, for now you should be able to use the lenovo web driver.

Message Edited by tdesaix on 11-11-2008 07:08 PM
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9 Posts

09-16-2008

Virginia

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-12, 3:07 AM

tdesaix,

I am a bit confused. Would it not be possible for Lenovo to post a driver that would work with all of the ISV CAD programs?

Are you indicating that for each CAD program we have to download a graphics driver to run that program with hardware acceleration?

In other words, if I were to run Solidworks, and ProE, and Inventor on the same W500 would I have to have 3 drivers (one for each program) and switch between them, each time I was using a different one?

 

R/Ira

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32 Posts

08-28-2008

North Carolina

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-12, 3:22 AM

headsup-

 

It would definatley be possible for Lenovo to post the ISV driver that is certified...good sugestion, maybe Mark can help us get that done.

 

The ISV driver is the same for all the ISV's apps, so it will work with all apps no need for multiple driver versions (that would suck!).    There is usually one XP driver and one Vista driver that goes out to all the ISVs for certification.  They then certify the driver and post it on their site as the certified version. That one driver gets updated every now and then and is then sent out to all the ISV's again for certification. 

 

Sometimes you might get an issue where one version fails at a particular ISV...

For example lets say Happy CAD finds some bug in driver version 6.52 but it works at all the other ISV's, in that case Happy CAD might have to certify 6.52.1 or 6.54 and you get a missmatch.  Even in that case 6.52.1 and 6.54 will 99% of the time work without issue on any other ISV apps- the fix for an app is ussually specific to that program as to not interfer with other apps.

 

Message Edited by tdesaix on 11-11-2008 07:32 PM
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9 Posts

09-16-2008

Virginia

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-12, 3:46 AM

tdesaix,

Thx for the quick reply!

That makes very good sense. The individual applications are certifying the driver for their program.

Who then writes the driver? Is that done by Lenovo or ATI?

It would be great if it was posted with all the other drivers on the driver matrix, with the caveat that there might be a particular application that is not 100% with it.

If a particular ISV has a problem with a driver version; who creates the variant for their program?

At any rate the sooner there is an ISV driver, I think the better for everyone.

 

R/Ira

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99 Posts

08-24-2008

PT

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Re: Help W500 graphics card question

2008-11-12, 10:19 AM

tdesaix,

 

I have no problem with the 5700 using the same M86 chip as the 3650, as you can see in my other postings on this thread, I know that is normal and that there is no other ATI chip that would fit the head and power budget of a 15.4" laptop.

 

However, you explanations are not completely satisfying:

- Having the same chip does not mean using the same chip ID, exactly because different drivers should be selected by the OS, these cards usually have different chip ID, and the chip ID on the official list at ATI is 9595.

- Even though they use the same chip, I've never seen a FireGL/Quadro which has the Radeon/GeForce label on the chip. Actually, in some desktop cards, the same chip is said to be packaged differently (with better quality packaging), although this is irrelevant for this 35W TDP chip.

- FYI, having 512MB memory also does not make this a FireGL, as there as lots of 1000€ consumer laptops with 512MB 3650s. Actually, because it is the same chip, and the memory controllers go inside the chip, memory support is the same.

 

I still did not receive my W500, I knew all along I was buying a 3650 (I dug deeply for more than a month), won't change my order, don't care for ISV certification but I do care very much (crucial) for the expected OpenGL 2.1 support.

 

People with 1000€ Radeon 3650 laptops,

 

This is great news for you! You now can install unhacked FireGL drivers or your Radeon drivers and have the best of both worlds!

Personally, I think this separation of markets, whose sole purpose is to discriminate prices, sucks.

 

All,

 

Don't care too much for 3dmarks scores, you see what happens during 3dmarks, it runs a sequence of Direct3D games, it is not representative of performance for completely different applications and screen resolutions, and I think they are a bit biased against ATI.

 

If you can't run SPECviewperf, as probably most can't, there's a nice utility to find out how much OpenGL hardware support do you have, particularly which extensions are available. It is the availability of a particular OpenGL extension that makes certain rendering features of programs (maybe Solidworks) possible or not possible. It is Realtech-VR glview, http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/

 

It's not easy if you don't know what you're looking for, however if you find out a particular app doesn't work with this or that driver, you can try comparing the list of supported extensions (maybe doing some printscreens).

 

Think this might be helpful in this phase of selecting the best driver (much more helpful than 3dmark). BTW, don't panic if you see little OpenGL 3.0 support, all information I have points to OpenGL 2.1 support only with current drivers.

 

W500 4062-2XG Gentoo Linux 64
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