English Community

ThinkPad NotebooksThinkPad: P and W Series Mobile Workstations
All Forum Topics
Options

34 Posts

05-03-2016

US

83 Signins

835 Page Views

  • Posts: 34
  • Registered: ‎05-03-2016
  • Location: US
  • Views: 835
  • Message 1 of 12

P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-16, 13:06 PM

Over the years I have purcheased numerous consumer grade laptops and have never had to deal with BIOS and driver upgrades (though they had other fatal issues) as soon as the machine arrived. The P50 forum almost feels like as if we are dealing with an open source product. Or most likely, P50 being a workstation, the users are far more saavy. But then we would assume that P50/P70 being their high-end machines would go through more rigorous tests before being packaged to ship. 

 

 

Lenovo Team:

 

I just ordered a P50 (base model). 

 

(i) Can I expect that it will have all the latest drivers and Bios installed as of the ship date?

(ii) Can you create (and keep it running / current) a list of things a new owner should check (in terms of OS/driver/Bios updates) and links to resources?

(iii) A list of known issues and their remedies. Forum is great but why have users  through frustration of discovering it, trying random acts, and then stumble into a corrective action?

(iv) A list of tests (and how to run tests) for common issues like Turbo mode, Fingerprint, HDMI port, Thunderbolt --- some of these one may not use for a long time and the problem may stay dormant.

 

Thanks!

 

Reply
Options

1848 Posts

11-28-2007

CZ

12102 Signins

124897 Page Views

  • Posts: 1848
  • Registered: ‎11-28-2007
  • Location: CZ
  • Views: 124897
  • Message 2 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-16, 14:04 PM

Time has changed. It is no longer the ThinkPad you are expecting. If you browse other forums you can find that Lenovo 2015/2016 products are released without any testing because there are numerous basic functionality issues (BIOS, drives, touch screens, keyboards etc.) you can find in first several minutes after unpacking.

 

Lenovo has lost their production competence. It is sad :smileyfrustrated:

__________________________________
ThinkPad (1992 - 2012): R51, X31, X220, Tablet 8.
Do you care about privacy and security ? Leave Google behind
Reply
Options

2405 Posts

06-13-2013

US

10785 Signins

57956 Page Views

  • Posts: 2405
  • Registered: ‎06-13-2013
  • Location: US
  • Views: 57956
  • Message 3 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-16, 14:29 PM

Might it be that we're simply seeing the expected introductory experience for BRAND NEW HARDWARE.  Isn't this "latest and greatest" experience to be expected with something hot off the press?

 

And aren't all software products ongoing evolutionary concepts where you can QA and test a thing to death until it absolutely performs 100% perfectly with all the test data you throw at it, but put it into production over the weekend and sure enough on Monday morning you'll have five new problems reported by "real world users" that the QA/testers just never ran across or thought of.

 

So why shouldn't hardware products be the same?  Test hardware in the lab, and it performs to spec.  Give it to 100 users "in the wild", and I predict you'll have some trouble tickets.  The vendor simply has to take in all of the new clues and diagnostic data and problem reports, and try and reproduce it in the lab, and then hopefully presumably correct whatever was at fault... be it driver or firmware or whatever.  Could be Lenovo, could be Realtek, could be Intel, could be any or all of them, involved with any particular issue.  This is just hardware debugging rather than software debugging, but the cycle is the same, and the experience is the same.

 

Software that's been out for 20 years is probably quite stable and by now problem-free.  It's only mostly the new features and new enhancements and even recent bug fixes which might exhibit new bugs that require fixing.  Why shouldn't hardware evolution and development and field usage all work the same way? We're talking about brand new hardware.

 

Doesn't nVidia put out graphic driver updates every month?  Why is that acceptable, but some fix to a hard-to-pin-down hardware problem coming from brand new hardware components not?

 

This isn't open-source.  This is just a brand new product finally making its way "into the wild" where real users will uncover things that QA testers and vendor engineering just never will.  Real users just do things that are unpredictable.  Even Oppo comes out with firmware upgrades to fix bugs in their high-end BluRay players that are reported by users.  Unless the bug is reported, the manufacturer simply never knew about it since the issue never showed up in all the months and years of product pre-development and testing. Had it been seen during testing it would have been fixed then.  You've got to see a symptom in order to know something's wrong. 

Reply
Options

123 Posts

11-16-2015

US

360 Signins

3796 Page Views

  • Posts: 123
  • Registered: ‎11-16-2015
  • Location: US
  • Views: 3796
  • Message 4 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-16, 15:06 PM

I wish it was open source !!

 

Then I could fix the problems with the BIOS myself !

Reply
Options

1848 Posts

11-28-2007

CZ

12102 Signins

124897 Page Views

  • Posts: 1848
  • Registered: ‎11-28-2007
  • Location: CZ
  • Views: 124897
  • Message 5 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-16, 15:19 PM

wrote:

 

Real users just do things that are unpredictable.

Like using the ECC RAM feature that was advertised but actually never worked for several months ? No, this is not the case. Do I have to write about EM7345 WWAN issues I have been trying to debug and solve for more than 12 months ? The initial product (due the firmware bugs) never worked so it was not ready for release at all. You can find numerous basic functionality issues with new Lenovo products. This is not a coincidence or a corner case, there is no QA anymore.

 

You are also wrong about the hardware-software border. Most of "hardware" issues are actually software ones, just on different level (or layer). Intel Skylake CPUs are (were) buggy lately but it does not mean you have to physically replace them (such fatal failures are rare and specific to nVidia). It can be fixed by a BIOS update that updates the CPU microcode. You can call that a hardware issue but the microcode is still a software again. The same for Lenovo broken BIOS causing drives not being recognized at boot etc. Given the number of complains in the P series forum, it is far from "Real users just do things that are unpredictable" test case, it is just lack of any testing. Or worse, Lenovo might be aware of this issues but don't care.

 

Yes, there are true hardware issues beyond repair. Low quality displays, low quality components causing the coil whine or probably bad motherboard design causing the speakers noise etc. All these issues are not anything new, they are there for several years over and over without any fix.

 

 

__________________________________
ThinkPad (1992 - 2012): R51, X31, X220, Tablet 8.
Do you care about privacy and security ? Leave Google behind
Reply
Options

1848 Posts

11-28-2007

CZ

12102 Signins

124897 Page Views

  • Posts: 1848
  • Registered: ‎11-28-2007
  • Location: CZ
  • Views: 124897
  • Message 6 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-16, 15:43 PM

wrote:

Unless the bug is reported, the manufacturer simply never knew about it since the issue never showed up in all the months and years of product pre-development and testing.

That's true but Lenovo does not have any centralized bug reporting system. You can only scream (enough) in forums hoping you get an attention. Is that kind of support you expect for a $7000 product ? This is far from open source projects having public issue trackers.

 

Well, there is a Lenovo support that usually gives two kind of "solutions"

- reinstall OS

- replace motherboard

 

I already have two experiences with Lenovo WWAN modules issues (here and here). If Lenovo had done any basic testing it could have been found immediately. In both cases the "official" solution was to reinstall OS, replace motherboard and replace the WWAN module. All of them were of course wrong.

 

I do understand there are issues in complex devices like laptops. But the number and severity of recent issues is alarming.

__________________________________
ThinkPad (1992 - 2012): R51, X31, X220, Tablet 8.
Do you care about privacy and security ? Leave Google behind
Reply
Options

2159 Posts

04-20-2008

US

19184 Signins

108350 Page Views

  • Posts: 2159
  • Registered: ‎04-20-2008
  • Location: US
  • Views: 108350
  • Message 7 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-16, 16:02 PM

@DSperber

 

You are incorrect in stating that the "Brand New Hardware" has to have "introductory experiences." With the exception of BIOS level updates, the Preload software is static and will almost always be downlevel from that posted in the Support website. There has been, in my opinion, too much BETA testing on the part of the purchasers of some of these systems (P50 in particular) which is out of character for ThinkPad products in general. I'm not sure why all of this is occurring now, but it is a fact. Forum members, including yourself, try to help others with workarounds  to some of the issues, but that is no substitute for a comprehensive support forum which does not formally exist at this time. While the Lenovo Staff does monitor the forums, there is also a disclaimer that this is not the formal mechanism for reporting issues. Additionally, the Service and Support personnel are not always keyed in to the latest hot items and thus react to problems according to a set of scripts. Ideally, it would be really great if there were a help desk that one could open a trackable incident #. Perhaps, in the future, there might be a premium service which could be offered that would allow for such a level of support.

 

Just my two cents here.


P53 XEON 2276 BIOS 1.22 OLED UHD 4K Multi-touch display, 96GB RAM, RTX5000, RAID 1, 1TB x 2 Samsung PM981, 1TB PM981, WWAN
P70 XEON 1505, BIOS 2.32, 4k Display, 64GB, M3000M NVIDIA GPU, RAID1 1TB Samsung PM981 PCIe-NVMe SSD x 2, 2x Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SSD. EM7455 WWAN
P1. BIOS 1.25,Xeon Processor, 4k UHD IPS multi-touch display, 32GB, PM981 1TB x 2, RAID1

I am not an employee nor an agent of Lenovo.
Reply
Options

130 Posts

05-03-2009

USA

262 Signins

1868 Page Views

  • Posts: 130
  • Registered: ‎05-03-2009
  • Location: USA
  • Views: 1868
  • Message 8 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-17, 0:59 AM

Back in the "good old days", ThinkPad was a slow adopter of new technologies.

 

For example, when Firewire (IEEE 1394) came out, most of the "consumer grade" laptops had it in months.  It took more than 1.5 year before we first saw Firewire port on ThinkPad.  It was not that IBM sitting on their hands and waited for 1.5 years.  It took IBM 1.5 years to field test the new technology and make sure they catch most (if not all) of the problems in the field.  The end result was a less exciting but robust laptop.

 

Times have changed.  Consumers are getting more and more impatient.  Manufacturers have to refresh their product line more than once a year to catch customers' attention.  In return, customers have to be the guinea pig and 'test' the product for manufacturers (while paying a premium for the unfinished product).

Reply
Options

34 Posts

05-03-2016

US

83 Signins

835 Page Views

  • Posts: 34
  • Registered: ‎05-03-2016
  • Location: US
  • Views: 835
  • Message 9 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-17, 1:08 AM
My only request is ... when my box arrives in next 4-5 days, give me checklist and tools to check. How do I check if each USB port, HDMI, thunderbolt, finder scanner, color meter are all working fine (rather than stumble into their defective state a few weeks or months later). How do I know both the fans are working as they should? That GPU is doing its job? How do I know that M.2 Pcie slot will work say 6 months from today when I put in a new SSD? If there is a complete shakedown diagnostic tool -- PLEASE give it to me. I don't mind running it. But having to ship the machine back, although some assurance, is not something I would want to do (at the cost of interrupting my work). Here is the thing -- the machine is not sold to us with "as is" disclaimer. The configuration isn't really all that cutting edge -- there are many other vendor products with similar configuration. The machine is offered to work as advertised in its specs. So let us start from there. Since I want this machine I will accept the burden to help test and debug. Just give me instructions and tools .. cause I do not have an IT department supporting me.
Reply
Options

130 Posts

05-03-2009

USA

262 Signins

1868 Page Views

  • Posts: 130
  • Registered: ‎05-03-2009
  • Location: USA
  • Views: 1868
  • Message 10 of 12

Re: P50 - a request to Lenovo team

2016-05-17, 1:23 AM

In short, there's no software/tool/instruction that can help you 'test' your machine.

 

Yes, there are 'test' software out there.  But Lenovo already ran those tests.  The problems discovered by the end users were triggered by specific sequennces of events.  No software can emulate all possible sequences of events.

 

A famous saying is - "Test can prove there are problems.  It cannot prove there is no problem."

Reply
Forum Home

Community Guidelines

Please review our Guidelines before posting.

Learn More

Check out current deals!

Go Shop
X

Save