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2032 Posts

11-28-2007

Czech Republic

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-17, 18:30 PM

wrote:

Sad part is I think this is an industry problem.  Other than Lenovo always have lower brightness backlight and seems to be using PWM, every other PC manufacturer has the same LCD problem.  Read a few of the HP Dreamcolor display reviews and they had problems as well.

Ironically some gaming laptops actually provides very good displays.

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ThinkPad (1992 - 2012): R51, X31, X220, Tablet 8.
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15 Posts

06-17-2016

United States of America

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-17, 18:58 PM

wrote:

wrote:

Sad part is I think this is an industry problem.  Other than Lenovo always have lower brightness backlight and seems to be using PWM, every other PC manufacturer has the same LCD problem.  Read a few of the HP Dreamcolor display reviews and they had problems as well.

Ironically some gaming laptops actually provides very good displays.


Definitely agree, the gaming laptops are better form factor, have far faster GPUs, and the displays are getter better.  The only concern I have is reliability.

 

I went through 3 Razer Blade 2016s each other had various issues.  All had fairly noticeable electrical noise and each keyboard had a different feel.  I had a love-hate relationship with the display.  Seems like they took an older 14" Sharp IGZO matte display with a haze anti-glare and put a glossy glass cover on it.  It created a wierd marbling effect on a plain white or light grey background.  Colors and resolution was great.  I absolutely loved the form factor.

 

There definitely is a correlation between size and screen uniformity for.  The display manufacturers like Sharp haven't ironed or their 4K manufacturing QC and seems like the laptop manufacturers aren't putting the pressure on them or have no other options (other than maybe Apple).

 

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15 Posts

06-17-2016

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-17, 19:00 PM

Sorry duplicate posting.


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200 Posts

06-14-2016

Sweden

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-17, 21:24 PM

wrote:

wrote:

I think that the problem with "my screen looks bad if I look at it from the side" is exaggerated.

It isn't. It might be tolerable in a $400 low-end laptop but not a $4000 workstation. There is no technology limitation to manufacture proper display component in 2016 (it was even possible ten years ago as well, T60p UXGA display is a good example). It is just another Lenovo attempt to trick customers using inappropriate low cost display component to maximize short-term profit by cheapening the ThinkPad brand. Fortunately it has limits and does not work.

 

Given amonut of P50/P70 serious issues (BIOS lockup, driver BSOD, boot issues etc) I think the P series is spoiled to consider it for a serious use. There is probably no laptop on market that can act as a reliable PC workstation replacement wihout so much keyboard/display compromises these days (gaming models are actually very close). Sad result of cutting costs.


What I mean is that if that had been the only problem and the panel would have been great in all other regards, I could live with the fact that it wasn't great from "extreme angels". I mean, it wasn't that long ago since you could safly use you laptop on an airplane knowing that the person sitting next to you coulnd't see a thing.

 

if you disregard the professional dGPUs that some people might need for CAD etc, there is one "PC" that matches most requirements - it's called MacBook Pro with Bootcamp. As a Microsoft .NET developer for many years, I've REALLY tried hard to find a "real" PC that would offer a better all in all Windows experience than a MacBook Pro running Windows but so far it has failed every year. And believe me, I've really tried. Must have bought at least 10 different PC laptops the last 5-6 years, all have been returned in favor of MacBook Pros. If I hadn't found these forums, the P50 or maybe the P70 would be on that list to now (the votes are still out on the P70 though, which seem to have less problem than the P50). And as a .NET developer, I'm really not an Apple lover.

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06-14-2016

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-17, 21:30 PM

wrote:

wrote:

wrote:

I think that the problem with "my screen looks bad if I look at it from the side" is exaggerated.

It isn't. It might be tolerable in a $400 low-end laptop but not a $4000 workstation. There is no technology limitation to manufacture proper display component in 2016 (it was even possible ten years ago as well, T60p UXGA display is a good example). It is just another Lenovo attempt to trick customers using inappropriate low cost display component to maximize short-term profit by cheapening the ThinkPad brand. Fortunately it has limits and does not work.

 

Given amonut of P50/P70 serious issues (BIOS lockup, driver BSOD, boot issues etc) I think the P series is spoiled to consider it for a serious use. There is probably no laptop on market that can act as a reliable PC workstation replacement wihout so much keyboard/display compromises these days (gaming models are actually very close). Sad result of cutting costs.


Sad part is I think this is an industry problem.  Other than Lenovo always have lower brightness backlight and seems to be using PWM, every other PC manufacturer has the same LCD problem.  Read a few of the HP Dreamcolor display reviews and they had problems as well.


Sorry for repeating myself here but there is at least one:

 

"The MacBook Pro is one of the few available notebooks without any PWM flickering (is created by periodical activation and deactivation of the LED illumination to influence the brightness via duty cycle)."

 

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-Retina-15-Mid-2015-Review.144402.0.html

 

I mean seriously Lenovo, HP, Dell, Acer etc...how hard can it be to produce a PC that can at least match a MacBook Pro running BootCamp?? After all, Apple doesn't even like Windows. How can it be that I year after year have to realize that the MacBook Pro is still the best PC-laptop despite not even being built for that originaly.

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15 Posts

06-17-2016

United States of America

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-17, 22:51 PM

wrote:


Sorry for repeating myself here but there is at least one:

 

"The MacBook Pro is one of the few available notebooks without any PWM flickering (is created by periodical activation and deactivation of the LED illumination to influence the brightness via duty cycle)."

 

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-Retina-15-Mid-2015-Review.144402.0.html

 

I mean seriously Lenovo, HP, Dell, Acer etc...how hard can it be to produce a PC that can at least match a MacBook Pro running BootCamp?? After all, Apple doesn't even like Windows. How can it be that I year after year have to realize that the MacBook Pro is still the best PC-laptop despite not even being built for that originaly.


Totally agree. I usually lump Apple out when I say PC since they have a really well oiled supply chain process and have stricter tolerances for their hardware.  I have been a die hard Apple user (Mac Pros, Macbook Pros, Macbook, iPhone, iPad, AppleTV) for the last 10 years and have been using Windows through Bootcamp, and I finally gave up.  It doesn't work as well as PCs given Apple's lack of proper trackpad drivers, power mangement, and other minor things.

 

My boggle with Apple is that they have pretty much moved away from Business as a standalone segment and they are more concerned combining their entire ecosystem together, namely iPhone (which is majority of Apple's revenue).  Innovation is stifled these days and they are playing catchup through software.  I know many developers who are moving away from using Apple Macbook Pros because of their limited overall upgradeability especially because of lack of memory over 16GB.  Their GPUs have always been half as powerful as what you can get in the PC world.

 

If they had announced something this year I may actually have waited, but it's hard given all the laptops that are out nowadays.

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2373 Posts

04-20-2008

United States of America

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-18, 0:22 AM

My two cents here,

 

I think that all of you have more than made your points in 9 pages. These systems (P50 and P70) are amazing machines with all of the integration that will fit in a chassis and still be portable. If you are doing serious photo or CAD work, a screen size of 15.4" at 4k resolution is probably not your primary visual point. The 1920 FHD screen is more than adequate for work and is a good compromise for font size and dpi scaling. The 17.3" 4K display on the P70 is just glorious for color rendition and detail, but even it is a compromise because of the thinness. There is a bit of backlight bleed in the lower corners by the hinge covers on most of these, but not so bad that it detracts from anything other than a totally black background. On my P70 the light bleed is there initially, but almost totally disappears after the screen is on for 5 minutes. I continue to be amazed at all of the built-in  features of the system and how many ports are afforded to me to utilize. I have the system set up with RAID 1 (find that in your Apple systems) and an additional 1TB of SSD in the 2.5" bay. EVERYTHING works as specified (HDMI has never been an issue on my specific monitor), but I've also  applied all of the firmware updates and drivers. I always run in discrete mode on my NVIDIA M3000M gPU. Would it be great to have  a better contrast ratio? SURE! Do I need it on my LAPTOP system? Not really.

 

So, I purchased a really fine machine whose performance is truly amazing. I've got a portable system that I can take with me if needed. I do have a T460s that I use when I travel around as the lightness wins over the P70 weight.

 

The P50 to me is a compromise compared to the P70 for both display and configuration. Sorry that some people are sensitive to PWM, but I've never experienced visual discomfort using any ThinkPad system in 15 years.

 

Thanks for reading this.


P53 XEON 2276 BIOS 1.28 OLED UHD 4K Multi-touch display, 96GB RAM, RTX5000, RAID 1, 1TB x 2 Samsung PM981, 1TB PM981, WWAN
P70 XEON 1505, BIOS 2.35, 4k Display, 64GB, M3000M NVIDIA GPU, RAID1 1TB Samsung PM981 PCIe-NVMe SSD x 2, 2x Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SSD. EM7455 WWAN
P1. BIOS 1.25,Xeon Processor, 4k UHD IPS multi-touch display, 32GB, PM981 1TB x 2, RAID1

I am not an employee nor an agent of Lenovo.
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2032 Posts

11-28-2007

Czech Republic

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-18, 9:37 AM

wrote:

there is one "PC" that matches most requirements - it's called MacBook Pro with Bootcamp.

Where is the keyboard and pointing device ? I need computer keyboard, not a pocket calculator one.

 

By a desktop replacement I expect something mobile that delivers as close as possible PC desktop experience. Old IBM ThinkPads were able to deliver it in every aspect: keyboard, pointing device, display, performance, reliability. That's all. None of these attributes (well, except performance but even workstations are infected by the unnecessary slim chasis disease and resulting cooling/performance issues) are delivered by today's laptops in general.

 

Back to topic, IBM ThinkPads and early Lenovo models had provided that experience. It is sad Lenovo has completely thrown away that past experience and designed an ordinary laptop pretending a workstation-grade machine with questionable reliability and terrible display component. Yes, other manufacturers more or less do the same but this is not an excuse. Is the competition aspect of capitalism still there ? It works in digital camera market pretty good, you can still get real "pro" tools there.

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2032 Posts

11-28-2007

Czech Republic

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-18, 9:56 AM

wrote:

My two cents here,

 

The 17.3" 4K display on the P70 is just glorious for color rendition and detail, but even it is a compromise because of the thinness.


How comes that a 17" gaming laptop for lower price than P70 provides matte 4K display with better color space coverage (88% AdobeRGB vs P70's 76% and no low PWM frequency issues in whole brightness setting range (plus excellent lowest brightness 20 cd/m2) ? Don't you feel tricked ?

__________________________________
ThinkPad (1992 - 2012): R51, X31, X220, Tablet 8.
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123 Posts

01-30-2016

Denmark

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Re: When do we finally get a good screen? (P50 4K)

2016-06-18, 10:53 AM

wrote:
If you are doing serious photo or CAD work, a screen size of 15.4" at 4k resolution is probably not your primary visual point. The 1920 FHD screen is more than adequate for work and is a good compromise for font size and dpi scaling.

I respectfully have to disagree with some of your points. Photo work would actually be the reason why one would choose the AdobeRGB, 4K display option. Wide, standardized color gamut and a pixel density which makes your photos look completely real and sharp. The FHD is unsuitable for photo work due to the low gamut. Even the praised IPS panels of the T4x/T6x were unsuitable.

 

The thing that ~90% have an issue with the P50 4K display is the absurdly low viewing angles, making on-axis use annoying. That has been the point of this thread for the vast majority of pages. The rest of complaints regard mainly the PWM which is only used at low brightness. However, the 4K screen appears so dark due to the viewing angles that there's little chance you'd ever want to use it at a low brightness setting.

 

The Panasonic 3K display in the W540/541 had no such problems - it's an excellent display by comparison, but unfortunately it is not offered in the P50.

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