cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Reply
Community SeniorMod
Community SeniorMod
Posts: 7,727
Registered: ‎01-13-2008
Location: US
Views: 1,057
Message 21 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

All: this thread is veering toward the personal.  Stick to the technical and avoid the personal - or risk losing posting privileges.

 

Z.


The large print: please read the Community Participation Rules before posting. Include as much information as possible: model, machine type, operating system, and a descriptive subject line. Do not include personal information: serial number, telephone number, email address, etc.


The fine print: I do not work for, nor do I speak for Lenovo. Unsolicited private messages will be ignored - questions and answers belong in the forum so that others may contribute and benefit. ... GeezBlog

 

  Communities:   English    Deutsch    Español    Português    Русскоязычное    Česká    Slovenská    Українська   Polski    Türkçe    Moto English

ecopelan
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 18
Registered: ‎03-12-2013
Location: US
Views: 1,013
Message 22 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

Got the same interest moire type pattern on the OLED display. Wasn't sure if this is considered normal or a defect. As someone pointed out below, lowering the screen brightness does help. However, there is another bug in a seperate thread that makes it so you can't adjust the screen brightness with latest 1.27 BIOS and Intel/nVidia drivers loaded from Lenovo Support. Sigh. If it's not the Thunderbolt Dock lag issue, it's the brightness issue and the OLED panel issue. 

 

Maybe my P1 Gen 1 isn't so bad after all...

lextr3
Punch Card
Posts: 21
Registered: ‎05-01-2019
Location: CA
Views: 959
Message 23 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

this is a voluntary defect from their part.. 

Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 7,513
Registered: ‎09-03-2014
Location: SK
Views: 901
Message 24 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

All,

 

An interesting discussion which I broached with the Product Team and felt you would be interested in what I could find out.

There have been similar complaints about “dots” or “mesh-like screen door effects on our OLED panels.  The root cause is most likely sensitivity to how the RGB subpixels are laid out across an OLED.  Because of their positioning, some users can actually see the space in between subpixels when they stare very close to the screen (most evident on an all-white background with brightness at 100%).  Ultimately, we find the GREAT majority of users will not be sensitive to this at a normal 18” viewing distance from the screen.  This will be the same across all OLED panels in the industry.

 

(Left is P1 Gen.2 / P53 OLED, right is conventional LCD).  Note the spacing between subpixels on the OLED vs. the uniform RGB layout on LCD.  Also note that the green subpixel is oriented slightly above other subpixels.P53_Pixels.PNGpixels

A Zoom in of an OLED panel. Note the negative space in between the sub pixels.  This could be root cause to what the user is seeing.  P53pixels1.PNGpixels zoom

 

 

The picture on the right here is a good example of a thin green line at the very edge of the top of the panel.  Users might see this due to the green subpixel’s orientation above blue and red.  P53Pixels2.PNGpixels line

 

 

In conclusion we would say that our panel is not defective in any way, but rather the pixel spacing is causing the “screen door” effect and is an artifact of the panel itself.  We have seen users mentioning a misalignment of the touch layer so perhaps that is exacerbating the pixel spacing.  While it’s somewhat noticeable from less than 18” on a complete blank white screen it might be argued that incredibly few people ever use a blank white screen in their workflow.  

 

Andy

 

English Community Leader
Please remember to come back and mark the post that you feel solved your question as the solution, it earns the member + points 
Did you find a post helpfull? You can thank the member by clicking on the star below their post awarding them Kudos
 

Please don't ask me questions by Personal Message; questions belong in the forums.
 

  Communities:   English    Deutsche    Español    Português    Русскоязычное    Česká    Slovenská    Українська   Język Polski    Moto English

altendky
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 18
Registered: ‎11-13-2019
Location: US
Views: 879
Message 25 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you for the detailed response here.  Any chance you have images showing the scale and pattern of the touch screen elements?

 

I understand that different people have different visual sensitivity to patterns and details.  That said I would say the pattern is apparent to me at closer to 27" and visible as dots at around 18".  Also, working on a bright white screen is actually very common.  Sure, not totally blank and only white but consider for example the web page that we are reading (or I am writing) right now.  Or, anything done in an office suite.  Paper normal (a little black on a lot of white) is a large amount of what many people look at.

 

Looking forward, while software can't address the gaps or their inconsistency (blue is low then blue is high) when presenting a solid color, I guess as OLED becomes more common we may start to see explicit support for this subpixel layout in antialiasing features.

 

I tend to prefer exploring new technology but I have to say that the cost of being different (subpixel layout in this case) seems high.  After a quick search my impression is that this is not the only possible subpixel layout for an OLED display.  I would definitely suggest considering alternatives in the future.

 

I've been wondering this whole time what would be a reasonable way to bring people's attention to this topic when they are considering a purchase.  Having a warning when picking the OLED display such as 'look out!  you may see a screen door effect if you choose this panel!' is certainly not a thing that would happen.  That said, I do think it would be reasonable to document the subpixel layouts in the display option list.  Links can be provided with close up images such as you shared and explanations of how non-standard layouts can be beneficial in some cases.

 

I think I'll get over my frustration with this, though it will likely be a thing I comment to people about for the life of the laptop.  The display certainly does have it's upsides.  I used it riding in the back of a minivan the other day with the sun shining in and it was impressively usable.  I had to go out of my way to line up the reflection of the sun on the screen to cause trouble and even then, IIRC, much of the screen was legible.

 

Cheers,

-kyle

tog84
Paper Tape
Posts: 7
Registered: ‎12-03-2019
Location: AU
Views: 856
Message 26 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

[Mod Note:  Message edited for content by moderation staff.  ^AG]

 

Its not just noticeable on white backgrounds its noticiticeable on all blocks of colours and all my colegues can see it up to 3 feet away!  the models only been out for a few months and its the number 1 topic in the forum so obiously its not the great very few its a major design flaw!!  and shouldnt be put on a product marketed for professionals!  

camille21
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 6
Registered: ‎11-05-2019
Location: FR
Views: 827
Message 27 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

Hello Andy_Lenovo,

 

Thank you for sharing this information with us. However, I disagree with your conclusions.

 

@Andy_LenovoThe root cause is most likely sensitivity to how the RGB subpixels are laid out across an OLED.  Because of their positioning, some users can actually see the space in between subpixels when they stare very close to the screen (most evident on an all-white background with brightness at 100%).

What I see is a diagonal fabric-like pattern that tiles the whole screen and is around 2 mm wide and 1mm tall. So this is way bigger than the space between subpixels on a 15" UHD screen. Also, I start noticing it with brightness at 25% and it becomes very noticeable from 50% on. While it is most obvious on all light colors (not only white) it is also visible above all other colors but the darkest.

It would be surprising if many people complained about something as small as the space between subpixels on a UHD screen as it not something the average human eyes would easily notice, at least certainly not mines given I can barely distinguish a pixel from its neighbors with this pixel density.

@Andy_LenovoThis will be the same across all OLED panels in the industry.

My coworker's XPS 15 OLED panel doesn't exhibit this issue nor does my Galaxy S9+.


I believe that this fabric-like pattern is the result of the interference between the subpixel arrangement and the grid of touch layer above. What makes me think that is that the repeating pattern has exactly the same orientation than the touch layer grid.

 

If that's the root of the issue, a slight difference in alignment of the touch layer may change the strength of this interference effect or cancel it entirely. This would explain why some users report that it is barely visible while others, like me, report that the issue is very visible and makes looking at the screen very incomfortable.

ecopelan
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 18
Registered: ‎03-12-2013
Location: US
Views: 813
Message 28 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

Thank you for the explination. The problem I think is exacerbated by the Screen Brightness bug: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P-and-W-Series-Mobile/P1-Gen2-brightness-control-not-working/m... and the Thunderbolt Gen 2 Dock "40AN" lag issue. Currently I am unable to change the screen brightness, which means it's on 100% brightness and this forum uses an all white background, no dark theme yet for web pages, and if I try to use the dock, I'm stuck with an extremely laggy laptop. So really, death by a thousand cuts at this point.

altendky
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 18
Registered: ‎11-13-2019
Location: US
Views: 809
Message 29 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen

How have you identified the details of the touch layer? I'm not questioning if you are correct, I'm just interested to know more about this.

Cheers,
-kyle
Highlighted
camille21
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 6
Registered: ‎11-05-2019
Location: FR
Views: 798
Message 30 of 114

Re: P1 Gen 2 - Small dots on OLED screen


@altendkyHow have you identified the details of the touch layer? I'm not questioning if you are correct, I'm just interested to know more about this.

If you turn off your screen or turn down the brightness to minimum and look very closely under good lighting conditions, you can see a really thin diagonal grid on the top glass. It's actually the Lenovo technician who came changing my first screen who pointed it out to me.

 

Assuming both our screens have the exact same defect, you can now increase the brightness step by step while looking at that grid until the fabric-like pattern appears. You'll notice that they are perfectly aligned. I believe that if we were able to remove the touch layer without damaging the OLED panel below, the problem would disappear. I won't take the risk though Smiley Happy

And we're back...

Move delayed but still coming

Learn More

Check out current deals!


Shop current deals

Top Kudoed Authors