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12-15-2016

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P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-16, 18:04 PM

Just got my P53 (i9 9880H, RTX 4000, 32GB Ram)  and set it to high performance when plugged in. (Also, I'm using the thunderbot 3 workstation dock with a wide 3840x1600 resolution monitor if that matters). It mostly working great; primary use is AutoCAD/SketchUp/etc, but I also do a bit of gaming on the side. With World of Warcraft, it runs fine for an undetermined amount of time (perhaps an hour), then the framrate drops from 70-80's to like 10 and becomes very jerky. Restarting the program doesn't help; only way to "fix" it is a full restart of the system.

 

Watching task manager, neither CPU or GPU are being heavily used (maybe 15-20% cpu, spikes of maybe 50% on GPU, but mostly lower than that), but the fans are generally on full when the game is active. I installed Intel Extreme Tuning Utility to monitor what's going on, and there is pretty constant power limit throttling going on even when the temps are around 50-60deg C. I've also seen a decent bit of thermal throttling.

 

I'm fully updated in windows updates and Lenovo Vantage; I also tried updating my graphics driver directly from NVIDIA but there was no change. 

 

What little time I've spent in CAD has been fine so far, so I'm not sure if this is normal behavior, but I'm a little surprised to see this much throttling when the CPU/GPU isn't anywhere near being stressed.

So two questions: 1) Any idea what could be causing the drops in the game? 2) Is the throttling at relatively low computational loads expected behavior?

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09-22-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-23, 0:03 AM

Hi there, I have the same issue as yours, however, I come with temp solution, so if you go to your bios settings and change the display adapter from Hybrid to dedicated, hopefully, you will not see any drop in framerates, at least that what happened with me, I played wither 3  high 1440p for 35 min did not drop below 55fps, that has been said I think there is problem with Optimus, and we need a bios update. 

( as I mention, it is a temp solution because you will not et any battery live ).

Now what I am curious about!  as you show in snapshots, how come at 70C there is trolling? they need to fix something there.

please keep posted if you find any solution, otherwise, I ill return this before 30 days warranty.

Thank you very much

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08-17-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-24, 0:36 AM

Hey Guys,

 

Thanks for these posts. I got my P53 around the same time as you did and I'm also having crazy cpu spikes which I'm thinking is having to do with temp throttling as it seems to mirror when the temperature reaches 70C and above. I'm running audio based programs and synthesizers and so far the unit is performing far worse than my 6 year old xeon processor when it comes to CPU intensive synthesizers. I've tried a lot of different bios settings to no avail, but will also try yours in hopes that it could help. I'll keep you guys updated, but I have another week before my return can be accepted and I may very well return the laptop which would be a huge bummer as I'd love for it to work. Please me me know if you guys come across any other solutions for CPU intensive work.

 

Thanks!

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09-22-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-24, 2:02 AM

Hi There.

"update", I said in the previous post that was probably due to Optimus,  so it appears that the problem was not really that , I discovered that when I  put the system under load/game everything work ok and no drop in framerate but soon I move the laptop or pick it up  right the way I notice significant framerate drop.

I called Lenovo support ( I have premiere), and I explain to the tech the issue. He agrees that could be due  to what they call it intelligent cooling some sensors that are related to cooling and power management, and one of the many things it does is when you move your laptop on a table or on your lap, the power, and cooling change and that's what affects the gaming performance, Now  the problem is  there is no option to disable that in this version of Lenovo vantage, So  he open a ticket on my behalf and he seems took it very seriously. I will keep you updated guys with anything new. 

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19 Posts

05-22-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-24, 3:05 AM

Not good to hear. Hopefully others with the system can chime in

 

Just ordered one of the pre-built units today with the I9 and RTX 4000 and I also have a Dell 7540 with a 9850H and RTX 3000 that I just received 

 

Hopefully my P53 will not have the same issues,  if so, it's going right back. 

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07-08-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-24, 3:19 AM

Hi everybody,

 

If the P53/P73 are like the P52/P72, the internal screen would normally be controlled by the integrated Intel GPU while the external screens are controlled by the discrete nVidia GPU. Some threads seem to point that there could be communication issues between the two GPUs and that slow things down.

 

By selecting the discrete GPU in BIOS, you force all screens to the more power-hungry nVidia GPU. The comm issue should be non-existent, so some see better graphics performance. Of course, that should NOT have much influence to the problem you are encountering.

 

I think running your workloads with the Intel eXtreme Tuning Utility monitor running (like some of you have already done) would help in determining what kind of throttling it is, and monitor the discrete GPU parameters too.

 

The CPU has:

  • Current Limit throttling (CPU tries to use more current than capable of handling), hard limit? (CPU or VR limit?)
  • Power Limit throttling (CPU tries to use more power than capable of handling), likely a hard limit (internal heat generation?)
  • Thermal throttling (CPU is too hot for it's own good), soft/hard limit (partly programmable, depends on the thermal solution (fan/heatsink)

Of those three, I think only the Thermal throttling depends on the Lenovo designs, with the addition of the external Motherboard VR Thermal throttling. If I'm wrong, let me know! Reading CPU datasheets is pretty complex (and quite boring). 

 

If it's thermal, it usually means one or many of the following:

  • The machine airflow is limited, obstructed (dust, on the carpet, etc.), or the incoming air is hot (or re-entering the cooling system)
  • The cooling solution is limited in it's capabilities and compromises are made (thus throttling)
  • The thermal interface material is mis-installed (improper contact), sub-performing or defective
  • Some part is defective and creating an excess of heat (bad chip), or preventing cooling (dead heat pipe, fan)

Now, I don't know what is the maximum possible heat generation with the VR (voltage regulator) and top-of-the-line CPU+ GPU+memory (TDPs anyone?), but it's likely that a laptop cannot sink all that heat simultaneously while still looking like a laptop. So, I would guess that the cooling solution has a limit lower than the MAX Total TDPs. Remember the wattage of the power adapter supplied with your machine. That energy (heat) must go somewhere (battery charging, CPU, GPUs, memory, etc).

 

Now, some Thermal throttling parameters are configurable by the BIOS, so Lenovo can tune them. If none of the components stay in the "danger zone" of over-heating, the Embedded Controller (monitors temperatures and controls the fans) and BIOS can allow more heat to be generated (more speed). The fans will run at high intensity.

 

Unfortunately, if one device is about to overheat, the whole system has to limit it's heat generation as the cooling systems are shared, and the heat from one device warms the other ones on the same branch. Heat is equalized through the system while it is dissipated outwards.

 

BTW, check in Lenovo Vantage/BIOS if there is cooling profile/noise level setting. My P52 has a "Intelligent cooling" setting. Also, check that Airplane power mode setting. Sometimes, it kicks ON erroneously and the laptop stops charging ;-)

 

If you have a repeatable testing scenario (or simply annoyed at this issue!), I think you should open a ticket with Lenovo. There could be a bug in BIOS/EC settings that could be corrected by an update. However, if you have a hardware issue like mis-applied thermal interface material, someone should fix it under warranty.

 

In any case (pun!) let Lenovo know through official support channels (because this forum isn't one).

 

Still thinkering with his new P52 (including thermals!),

Martin

I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-24, 3:27 AM
MMLMTT, you beat me to one of my points, you spoke about the "Intelligent cooling" setting while I was writing my post!

And yes, opening a ticket is what should be done with a brand-new fresh out of the factory machine.

This issue must rise out of the noise!

Martin
I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-24, 15:24 PM

Thank you ve2mrx for your post, It was really informative, I will give it one more week, and if this issue did not get resolved, I will give it back.

Talking about applying thermal pad, and if it is the same as P52,  seems so risky and hard to get to the heat sink,  many Thanks  to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr2Uz3wHv30 

 Thank you very much.

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-24, 22:48 PM
Thanks!

Yes, I watched the video of someone replacing his TIM, and I chose not to do it. I repared computers as a living, and I find the operation a bit risky for the benefits I would get. My machine works OK with undervolting (by -0.100V). I would not really get anything out of TIM replacement.

I DO want to do it (for fun!), but I don't want to mess with my 3y warranty ;-)

Martin
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09-22-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-25, 2:25 AM

Hi Guys, it  has been confirmed, I get the email today from Lenovo Tech support, the issue has been raised to a higher level, 

and they agree that is due to the intelligent cooling according to him they are working on that, sooner w'll see a solution

Thank you  ve2mrx  I was looking for the best under volt spot I tried mine @(-0..095V), and I get good performance.

mine is i9 9880h, however, I am wondering is it normal that turbo boost short power max is set to 91.000w while the turbo boost power max is 59.750W, if you or anyone has idea please light me on that, 

Thank you very much.

 

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05-22-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-25, 2:51 AM

So what does this mean?  Just a firmware update or a drivers update?

 

I hate to be buying something on the promise of a future fix yet to come...I should be getting mine on Monday but only have to the 16th to return my Dell.

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-25, 3:40 AM

Hi MMLMTT,

 

Some people don't want to open a ticket (I've been told it's useless by a forum user!), but I'm sure you are happy you did after all. I myself opened two in the last few months, and I'm happy with the results.

 

Now, yes, it's normal for Turbo Boost Short Power Max to be set higher than Turbo Boost Power Max. The idea is that the CPU does not warm up instantly (has a thermal mass) and while it's "cold", it takes more time for the temperature to rise. So, it can generate more heat before getting hot. However, once hot, it takes less heat to keep it hot. Pretty much like in winter when you turn the heat in a cold room. At first, the heating system runs at MAX until the room is warm, then just a bit.

 

So, the CPU, when "cold", is allowed to run up to 91.000W for 28 seconds (or until the temperature reaches a certain level) and then up to a max ot 59.750W (again, until the temperature reaches a certain level). During this, as the CPU gets "hot", it lowers it's core frequency to stay in the temperature limit. If the temperature rises too much (usually 100C), it's Thermal Throttle. It basically puts the CPU on "pause", during which little heat is generated, so it cools.

 

The beauty of all this is that it's mostly handled by the CPU itself with little external help. I'm old, I remember the AMD Athlon (iirc) that would burn itself up (with plenty of smoke!) if you removed the heatsink/fan... Nowadays, you could run an Intel CPU with no heatsink, and except for having a lousy performance, the system would run without damage (at least for a couple days).

 

One last note: Turbo Boost should be considered a form of "bonus". The CPU is intended to run continuously at the Base frequency, and other conditions permitting (temperature, current, power), speeds up until one of those resources is maxed out. That's why the Turbo Boost multipliers are set per number of active cores. The CPU has more headroom per core if there are fewer cores active at a time!

 

That means that on my machine (I7-8750H, 2.2GHz up to 4.1GHz, 6 core Hyper-Threading, TDP 45W) I can get up to 4.1GHz (41x100MHz) only if 1-2 cores are active. At 5 or more, the limit is 3.9GHZ (39x100MHz). My base frequency is 2.2GHz, so I should never get lower unless something is broken! My average is 3.86GHz, close enough.

 

The I9-9880H is 2.3GHz up to 4.8GHz, 8 cores Hyper-Threading, TDP 45W. It kinda means you won't see 4.8GHz unless you park 6 cores (look it up in XTU). So, throttling is something to live with in some form, as long as it's "in family" as NASA would say. I like the way Intel XTU shows all of it. It's clear and complete, and lets you void your warranty if you want to ;-)

 

Happy computing on your powerhouse!

Martin

 

I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
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08-17-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-09-28, 19:24 PM

There's something else going on besides throttling I think. I'm noticing cpu speeds jump around all the time from 781 to 4.3 and back down over and over in the course of seconds. I contacted Lenovo about it and they say it's a known and serious issue. Right now, I'm barely getting by on just running the audio software I use. My software just can't handle anything that is cpu stressing like soft synths. It does fine with samplers. I'm thinking I'll return the machine, although I really want it to work.

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12-15-2016

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-11, 0:53 AM

So I missed all these replies due to notifications being sent to junkmail... 

I don't have any major solutions, but I did install the latest drivers from Nvidia (431.94) and it seemed to help on the framerate drops in game, but it's definitely not solved. I undervolted to try and help the thermals and while it seems to have made some differences on how much it throttles, I'm not sure I've actively noticed a marked improvement in performance. In fact, now that I'm looking at it to see how much I undervolted, it's back at default, so I'm scratching my head a little on why that didn't save.

 

On a semi related note; I also think there's some goofyness in the handoff from the laptop to the Thunderbolt dock. I've had several instances where the windows interface was just a little laggy until I did a restart.

 

I feel like it's all driver issues, and in general I'm still pretty happy with this machine; I work in CAD, Sketchup, and several other related programs and it's been flying through all that, which is the reason I bought this in the first place.

Wish I had some magic bullet though... Crossing my finger Lenovo/Nvidia will work the bugs out soon.

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07-08-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-11, 2:12 AM
Is the default GPU nVidia or Intel? Or maybe dGPU is set in BIOS?

The built-in screen is normally managed by the iGPU, unless dGPU is set in BIOS. It may be a reason for the goofyness? The communication between both drivers has apparently caused issues earlier this year.

Martin
I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-11, 3:00 AM
I've played with different settings when I'm not on an external monitor; the processor in use depends on the program I'm using. usually my heavy hitters are handled by the dGPU. Good to know that they're working on the communication between them though, and that might explain some of what I've been seeing
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10-24-2019

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-30, 21:01 PM

Along with all the prior postings I add my dismal experiences on a P53 i7 hexcore with 16GB ram. I use only Linux, mainly Slackware, but, have latest Fedora 31 & Ubuntu 19.10 on separate partitions. The initial problems with the Elantech touchpad & the new Intel Wifi 6 AX200 were quickly solved. My main stressful use is code development.

 

I expended circa 100 hours trying to get this machine running in a satifactory state. I failed. It was simply never possible to control the perpetual random thermal cpu throtling. It throttled on boot! (dmesg -H) would always show a dozen (or several) overheat warnings amidst the usual diagnostic messages. Or while editing in vim or emacs, the text on screen would get an unwanted dozen warnings. There's no load here. I never moved computer; it sat on a desk.

 

One of my favorite heavy duty tests is to make a squashfs like this

 

     mksquashfs /usr usr.sqfs

 

Perpexingly, this action runs mostly without throttling notes.

 

I disabled nouveau completely & used either the iGPU or installed the proprietary Nvidia GPU. Both worked well. But, how about a BIOS option to use the Intel GPU only?

 

As noted by many others as well, the warped chassis issue was a sign of careless that I have never seen in a ThinkPad over the last 20 years or so of useage & ownership.

 

I'll wait another year & try again with the P54 hoping all these annoyances will have disappeared.

 

 

 

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-30, 21:20 PM
Remember that you can set the default GPU in the nVidia control panel, as well as manage per-app preferences.

However, only the BIOS setting can completely turn off the Intel GPU. The nVidia GPU cannot be disabled as the external monitors are not accessible to the Intel GPU.

Martin
I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-30, 21:25 PM

Hi Linux0,
Have you confirmed proper operations in the Windows provided with the machine? Or was Linux pre-installed in your machine?

Do you understand the different reasons for throttling and why it's normal in many circumstances?

Linux issues might be external to the computer. That's why I recommend you test with the pre-installed OS

Martin

I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-30, 21:35 PM

The tests described in my critique of the P53 are those I have run successfully in all previous Thinkpads including my current T540p. What I observe are clearly hardware design charsteristics. I can say nothing about the default OS; I never use it.

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Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

2019-10-30, 21:44 PM

See my other thread on P73 performance issue;

Similar issue;

 

GPU will go to limp whenever laptop is moved, touched or else;

 

Temp fix was to unisntall Lenovo's power management sofware / drivers; Few items;

Nothing is lost (really), laptop works as it should

P73 6c Xeon, RTX 5000, 2TB NVMe Samsung x 2, 7.6TB 2.5 SATA Micron SSD, 64gb ECC ram
Prior: Razer Blade Pro, Variety of Mac Books (2001 - 2015)
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