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wwakefield
Paper Tape
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎12-15-2016
Location: US
Views: 2,076
Message 1 of 33

P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Just got my P53 (i9 9880H, RTX 4000, 32GB Ram)  and set it to high performance when plugged in. (Also, I'm using the thunderbot 3 workstation dock with a wide 3840x1600 resolution monitor if that matters). It mostly working great; primary use is AutoCAD/SketchUp/etc, but I also do a bit of gaming on the side. With World of Warcraft, it runs fine for an undetermined amount of time (perhaps an hour), then the framrate drops from 70-80's to like 10 and becomes very jerky. Restarting the program doesn't help; only way to "fix" it is a full restart of the system.

 

Watching task manager, neither CPU or GPU are being heavily used (maybe 15-20% cpu, spikes of maybe 50% on GPU, but mostly lower than that), but the fans are generally on full when the game is active. I installed Intel Extreme Tuning Utility to monitor what's going on, and there is pretty constant power limit throttling going on even when the temps are around 50-60deg C. I've also seen a decent bit of thermal throttling.

 

I'm fully updated in windows updates and Lenovo Vantage; I also tried updating my graphics driver directly from NVIDIA but there was no change. 

 

What little time I've spent in CAD has been fine so far, so I'm not sure if this is normal behavior, but I'm a little surprised to see this much throttling when the CPU/GPU isn't anywhere near being stressed.

So two questions: 1) Any idea what could be causing the drops in the game? 2) Is the throttling at relatively low computational loads expected behavior?

MMLMTT
Paper Tape
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎09-22-2019
Location: US
Views: 1,890
Message 2 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Hi there, I have the same issue as yours, however, I come with temp solution, so if you go to your bios settings and change the display adapter from Hybrid to dedicated, hopefully, you will not see any drop in framerates, at least that what happened with me, I played wither 3  high 1440p for 35 min did not drop below 55fps, that has been said I think there is problem with Optimus, and we need a bios update. 

( as I mention, it is a temp solution because you will not et any battery live ).

Now what I am curious about!  as you show in snapshots, how come at 70C there is trolling? they need to fix something there.

please keep posted if you find any solution, otherwise, I ill return this before 30 days warranty.

Thank you very much

edcircus
Paper Tape
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎08-16-2019
Location: US
Views: 1,814
Message 3 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Hey Guys,

 

Thanks for these posts. I got my P53 around the same time as you did and I'm also having crazy cpu spikes which I'm thinking is having to do with temp throttling as it seems to mirror when the temperature reaches 70C and above. I'm running audio based programs and synthesizers and so far the unit is performing far worse than my 6 year old xeon processor when it comes to CPU intensive synthesizers. I've tried a lot of different bios settings to no avail, but will also try yours in hopes that it could help. I'll keep you guys updated, but I have another week before my return can be accepted and I may very well return the laptop which would be a huge bummer as I'd love for it to work. Please me me know if you guys come across any other solutions for CPU intensive work.

 

Thanks!

MMLMTT
Paper Tape
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎09-22-2019
Location: US
Views: 1,797
Message 4 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Hi There.

"update", I said in the previous post that was probably due to Optimus,  so it appears that the problem was not really that , I discovered that when I  put the system under load/game everything work ok and no drop in framerate but soon I move the laptop or pick it up  right the way I notice significant framerate drop.

I called Lenovo support ( I have premiere), and I explain to the tech the issue. He agrees that could be due  to what they call it intelligent cooling some sensors that are related to cooling and power management, and one of the many things it does is when you move your laptop on a table or on your lap, the power, and cooling change and that's what affects the gaming performance, Now  the problem is  there is no option to disable that in this version of Lenovo vantage, So  he open a ticket on my behalf and he seems took it very seriously. I will keep you updated guys with anything new. 

Venetach
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎05-22-2019
Location: US
Views: 1,787
Message 5 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Not good to hear. Hopefully others with the system can chime in

 

Just ordered one of the pre-built units today with the I9 and RTX 4000 and I also have a Dell 7540 with a 9850H and RTX 3000 that I just received 

 

Hopefully my P53 will not have the same issues,  if so, it's going right back. 

ve2mrx
802.11n
Posts: 157
Registered: ‎07-07-2019
Location: CA
Views: 1,785
Message 6 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Hi everybody,

 

If the P53/P73 are like the P52/P72, the internal screen would normally be controlled by the integrated Intel GPU while the external screens are controlled by the discrete nVidia GPU. Some threads seem to point that there could be communication issues between the two GPUs and that slow things down.

 

By selecting the discrete GPU in BIOS, you force all screens to the more power-hungry nVidia GPU. The comm issue should be non-existent, so some see better graphics performance. Of course, that should NOT have much influence to the problem you are encountering.

 

I think running your workloads with the Intel eXtreme Tuning Utility monitor running (like some of you have already done) would help in determining what kind of throttling it is, and monitor the discrete GPU parameters too.

 

The CPU has:

  • Current Limit throttling (CPU tries to use more current than capable of handling), hard limit? (CPU or VR limit?)
  • Power Limit throttling (CPU tries to use more power than capable of handling), likely a hard limit (internal heat generation?)
  • Thermal throttling (CPU is too hot for it's own good), soft/hard limit (partly programmable, depends on the thermal solution (fan/heatsink)

Of those three, I think only the Thermal throttling depends on the Lenovo designs, with the addition of the external Motherboard VR Thermal throttling. If I'm wrong, let me know! Reading CPU datasheets is pretty complex (and quite boring). 

 

If it's thermal, it usually means one or many of the following:

  • The machine airflow is limited, obstructed (dust, on the carpet, etc.), or the incoming air is hot (or re-entering the cooling system)
  • The cooling solution is limited in it's capabilities and compromises are made (thus throttling)
  • The thermal interface material is mis-installed (improper contact), sub-performing or defective
  • Some part is defective and creating an excess of heat (bad chip), or preventing cooling (dead heat pipe, fan)

Now, I don't know what is the maximum possible heat generation with the VR (voltage regulator) and top-of-the-line CPU+ GPU+memory (TDPs anyone?), but it's likely that a laptop cannot sink all that heat simultaneously while still looking like a laptop. So, I would guess that the cooling solution has a limit lower than the MAX Total TDPs. Remember the wattage of the power adapter supplied with your machine. That energy (heat) must go somewhere (battery charging, CPU, GPUs, memory, etc).

 

Now, some Thermal throttling parameters are configurable by the BIOS, so Lenovo can tune them. If none of the components stay in the "danger zone" of over-heating, the Embedded Controller (monitors temperatures and controls the fans) and BIOS can allow more heat to be generated (more speed). The fans will run at high intensity.

 

Unfortunately, if one device is about to overheat, the whole system has to limit it's heat generation as the cooling systems are shared, and the heat from one device warms the other ones on the same branch. Heat is equalized through the system while it is dissipated outwards.

 

BTW, check in Lenovo Vantage/BIOS if there is cooling profile/noise level setting. My P52 has a "Intelligent cooling" setting. Also, check that Airplane power mode setting. Sometimes, it kicks ON erroneously and the laptop stops charging ;-)

 

If you have a repeatable testing scenario (or simply annoyed at this issue!), I think you should open a ticket with Lenovo. There could be a bug in BIOS/EC settings that could be corrected by an update. However, if you have a hardware issue like mis-applied thermal interface material, someone should fix it under warranty.

 

In any case (pun!) let Lenovo know through official support channels (because this forum isn't one).

 

Still thinkering with his new P52 (including thermals!),

Martin

I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
P52 I7-8750H P1000 FHD 16GB 512GB-SSD 1TB-HDD
ve2mrx
802.11n
Posts: 157
Registered: ‎07-07-2019
Location: CA
Views: 1,780
Message 7 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

MMLMTT, you beat me to one of my points, you spoke about the "Intelligent cooling" setting while I was writing my post!

And yes, opening a ticket is what should be done with a brand-new fresh out of the factory machine.

This issue must rise out of the noise!

Martin
I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
P52 I7-8750H P1000 FHD 16GB 512GB-SSD 1TB-HDD
MMLMTT
Paper Tape
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎09-22-2019
Location: US
Views: 1,735
Message 8 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Thank you ve2mrx for your post, It was really informative, I will give it one more week, and if this issue did not get resolved, I will give it back.

Talking about applying thermal pad, and if it is the same as P52,  seems so risky and hard to get to the heat sink,  many Thanks  to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr2Uz3wHv30 

 Thank you very much.

ve2mrx
802.11n
Posts: 157
Registered: ‎07-07-2019
Location: CA
Views: 1,698
Message 9 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Thanks!

Yes, I watched the video of someone replacing his TIM, and I chose not to do it. I repared computers as a living, and I find the operation a bit risky for the benefits I would get. My machine works OK with undervolting (by -0.100V). I would not really get anything out of TIM replacement.

I DO want to do it (for fun!), but I don't want to mess with my 3y warranty ;-)

Martin
I'm a user, NOT a Lenovo employee. If my post helped, consider giving me a Kudos. If I solved your issue, please mark it as Solved.
P52 I7-8750H P1000 FHD 16GB 512GB-SSD 1TB-HDD
MMLMTT
Paper Tape
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎09-22-2019
Location: US
Views: 1,672
Message 10 of 33

Re: P53 Performance Issues - Thermal/Power Throttling?

Hi Guys, it  has been confirmed, I get the email today from Lenovo Tech support, the issue has been raised to a higher level, 

and they agree that is due to the intelligent cooling according to him they are working on that, sooner w'll see a solution

Thank you  ve2mrx  I was looking for the best under volt spot I tried mine @(-0..095V), and I get good performance.

mine is i9 9880h, however, I am wondering is it normal that turbo boost short power max is set to 91.000w while the turbo boost power max is 59.750W, if you or anyone has idea please light me on that, 

Thank you very much.undervolt.png

 

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