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OliverK1
SCSI Port
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎09-13-2018
Location: BE
Views: 741
Message 41 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

I see. I don't have energy to pull out all the reviews of the P series machines I have seen, but I do remember they came with Samsung 981. Here's three that I found.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-P1-Xeon-E-2176M-Quadro-P2000-Max-Q-Workstation-Review....

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-P52-i7-P1000-FHD-Workstation-Review.322974.0.html

https://www.ultrabookreview.com/24007-lenovo-thinkpad-p72-review/

 

It's not a big deal, just it feels saving pennies on an expensive machine. There's tons of Samsung 981 in various sizes on ebay for a fair price.

 

I understand your use case. Mostly, I would also use the machine at the desktop, but I also use it to watch movies, youtube, surf the web, and type a lot, away from the desk. I tried using it this way, and it was a disappointment for me. If I spend 4000€ on a machine, I don't want to have these type of compromises to live with. If it would be a machine given to by my employer, of course, I would be super happy for it.

 

 

 

THuckabay
Punch Card
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎11-19-2018
Location: US
Views: 718
Message 42 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

I completely agree with you.  In fact, most employees these days want to be able to use their systems away from work for other activities (e.g., movies).  Regardless, there is no excuse for Lenovo, at this late date, to be putting crappy speakers in ANY Thinkpad, let alone one so costly and robust as the P72.  Some heads need to roll at Lenovo over this and other ongoing design decisions (e.g., putting crappy keyboards in international, non-U.S. English systems).  (I have a U.S. system, which does not suffer, for the most part, from undersized keys, though the Enter and Backspace keys are, for me, still a bit too small.)  I'm struggling at this point with whether the P72, or any current Thinkpad, is really worth the extra cost given compromises on speakers, keyboards, sRGB ignorance, and even inconsistent 4K displays that have backlighting issues.  Moreover, the new ThinkPad docks suffer from issues not present in prior generations, which should have been worked out by now, but remain it seems.  Lenovo needs to get serious and fix these issues.

OliverK1
SCSI Port
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎09-13-2018
Location: BE
Views: 699
Message 43 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?


@THuckabay wrote:

I completely agree with you.  In fact, most employees these days want to be able to use their systems away from work for other activities (e.g., movies).  Regardless, there is no excuse for Lenovo, at this late date, to be putting crappy speakers in ANY Thinkpad, let alone one so costly and robust as the P72.  Some heads need to roll at Lenovo over this and other ongoing design decisions (e.g., putting crappy keyboards in international, non-U.S. English systems).  (I have a U.S. system, which does not suffer, for the most part, from undersized keys, though the Enter and Backspace keys are, for me, still a bit too small.)  I'm struggling at this point with whether the P72, or any current Thinkpad, is really worth the extra cost given compromises on speakers, keyboards, sRGB ignorance, and even inconsistent 4K displays that have backlighting issues.  Moreover, the new ThinkPad docks suffer from issues not present in prior generations, which should have been worked out by now, but remain it seems.  Lenovo needs to get serious and fix these issues.


When I worked at big FMCG companies, I was running a lot of cost saving programs. It was a choice among different options, but mostly, we were targeting the "minimum acceptable level" by the consumers, and tracked the number of complaints. We optimised the product level to the bare minimum all the time. Even a small saving was worth millions on a large number of products, so we sliced off every single "extra" from the products. Some of the brands I worked with changed their nature completely over the years, as they became "lean". Some kept their nature, and become better and more robust, as we knew what things mattered, and what not.

 

The process seems to be the something similar with the ThinkPad brand for me. For me, thinkpad was superlative keyboards, excellent build quality, robust like a tank, industrial design - kind of a workhorse machine that I don't have to worry about, it just gets the job done every single day. However, probably for most of the buyers it was/is an overkill, so they can trim off cost. Like one gets the same steering wheel in every Mercedes, in the entry level small models, and the luxury models. Maybe the luxury version gets leather cover on it, and even different colour options, but it will be the same steering wheel.

 

Now, I have to realise, the ThinkPad brand is something different vs. what I thought it is, or what my experience was in the past when it was at IBM. Lenovo bought the ThinkPad brand, and they transformed it into something partially similar, partially different.

 

Probably, on a large scale, we are only a small group of consumers who don't want oversaturated colours, and buy the 4K display to really to do creative work on it.

 

Probably, most everyday consumers don't care about the keyboard like I do on the P72/P52, and Lenovo can save some money on using a smaller footprint keyboard that fits into a larger number of its machines in production. Also, because the BIOS issues appear on all P series machines, I suspect it comes from a modular desing issue, a "feature" that they use on all the P series laptops.

 

As for the 4K screen, I can imagine they surveyed their consumers, and most of the businesses who buy the P72 only run simulations, CAD, or whatever on the 4K screen, and the oversaturated colours are of low priority somewhere at the bottom of the Excel table of "user needs".

 

I guess this will be solved over time, as more 4K screens will be out there, but now we are just a small group, I guess. I mean, if we look at all the ThinkPad buyers, how many buy it with a 4K screen? And how many of those really complain about the oversaturated colours? My feeling is that our problem financially is not really a priority. Even if hundred people return their P72 due to the oversaturated colours, it is a tiny drop of loss, vs. all the saving they make buy selling the 4K screens for the rest and not caring. But maybe I am wrong, these are only speculations after all.

 

I didn't abandon Lenovo for all, I am happy to reconsider it next year or later, but I need good colours now, so that's it.

ChrisM5
Punch Card
Posts: 32
Registered: ‎10-06-2018
Location: DE
Views: 653
Message 44 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?


@OliverK1 wrote:

The process seems to be the something similar with the ThinkPad brand for me. For me, thinkpad was superlative keyboards, excellent build quality, robust like a tank, industrial design - kind of a workhorse machine that I don't have to worry about, it just gets the job done every single day. However, probably for most of the buyers it was/is an overkill, so they can trim off cost. 

That's exactly the reason I chose a ThinkPad this time. As well as the supposed good Linux support.

 


@OliverK1 wrote:

 

Probably, on a large scale, we are only a small group of consumers who don't want oversaturated colours, and buy the 4K display to really to do creative work on it.

[...]

As for the 4K screen, I can imagine they surveyed their consumers, and most of the businesses who buy the P72 only run simulations, CAD, or whatever on the 4K screen, and the oversaturated colours are of low priority somewhere at the bottom of the Excel table of "user needs".

Those who want to do "creative work" in the sense of graphics relateted stuff do love the wide gamut. That's the reason why I was searching for wide gamut as first pripority and 4k only second. Any professional graphic application does handle color profiles and thus will work perfectly with a wide gamut screen.

Only the applications that are not aware of color profiles (CAD? Simulation? ...) can show over saturated colors.

 


 

THuckabay
Punch Card
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎11-19-2018
Location: US
Views: 548
Message 45 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

Lenovo Premiere Support and a "case manager" at Lenovo informed me that Lenovo will NOT be doing anything to address the sRGB, etc., issues for their WCG-display laptops.  I tried in vain to explain the issues to them, but they proved to be obtuse / uncaring at the end of the day.  I have returned my P72 for a full refund, not just due to this sRGB issue, but more significantly (to me) due to Lenovo breaking their word to me (which I have in writing directly from Lenovo) at the time of the sale to issue me a partial refund (due to their having charged too much tax and having charged more on Black Friday than on Thanksgiving for the machine.  Since Lenovo proved untrustworthy of my business at the end, I have decided to go with a different vendor for myself and my company.  All the best to all of you.

OliverK1
SCSI Port
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎09-13-2018
Location: BE
Views: 540
Message 46 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?


@THuckabay wrote:

Lenovo Premiere Support and a "case manager" at Lenovo informed me that Lenovo will NOT be doing anything to address the sRGB, etc., issues for their WCG-display laptops.  I tried in vain to explain the issues to them, but they proved to be obtuse / uncaring at the end of the day.  I have returned my P72 for a full refund, not just due to this sRGB issue, but more significantly (to me) due to Lenovo breaking their word to me (which I have in writing directly from Lenovo) at the time of the sale to issue me a partial refund (due to their having charged too much tax and having charged more on Black Friday than on Thanksgiving for the machine.  Since Lenovo proved untrustworthy of my business at the end, I have decided to go with a different vendor for myself and my company.  All the best to all of you.


Sorry to hear that... and I don't think Dell, HP, or others are any better, just the issues are different.

 

At least we know we cannot expect any solution for the sRGB problems, thanks for posting the outcome.

OliverK1
SCSI Port
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎09-13-2018
Location: BE
Views: 538
Message 47 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?


@ChrisM5

Those who want to do "creative work" in the sense of graphics relateted stuff do love the wide gamut. That's the reason why I was searching for wide gamut as first pripority and 4k only second. Any professional graphic application does handle color profiles and thus will work perfectly with a wide gamut screen.

Only the applications that are not aware of color profiles (CAD? Simulation? ...) can show over saturated colors.

 


 


My "graphic" apps showed colors well.

 

The problem was "everything else": browsing, Youtube, Office, whatever other apps - they showed oversaturated unnatural colours. If I would use the machine ONLY for doing my photography work, probably I would have swallowed this inconvenice.

freddellmeister
Token Ring
Posts: 152
Registered: ‎12-24-2011
Location: AE
Views: 515
Message 48 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

The sRGB compatibility  is a pain, having lived with aRGB panels for some time in different forms I have a few suggestions.

 

1.Firefox and I belive chrome can nowadays display untagged elements as sRGB on aRGB monitor. (with tweaks Web Browsing is OK)

2.Lightroom etc can nativly work in aRGB.

 

The elephant in the room is WINDOWS operating system, who by now should ADAPT to the color space of the attached monitor without artifacts experienced when untagged sRGB elements are displayed on aRGB color space monitors.

 

 

 

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bobbie424242
802.11n
Posts: 44
Registered: ‎12-20-2018
Location: FR
Views: 110
Message 49 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

I re-read this thread entirely and it is sad that many months later the situation is the same: grossly oversaturated colors in the majority of programs (yup, I refuse to day "apps"). How hard can it be to provide an sRGB mode for these wide-gamut panels ? Super hard apparently...

I'm usually working on an external 4K monitor configured in sRGB mode in OSD, and each time I switch to the laptop panel the oversaturation is jarring. I suppose that at this time, the pipe dream would be for Microsoft to implement WCG support in Windows as a universal solution for these panels. Currently we are torn between a 1080p with proper colors in Windows (excepted pro WCG aware programs) or a 4K panel with neon colors (in non-WCG aware programs, that is most of them).

Lenovo ThinkPad P72 - i7-8850H / 16GB DDR4-2400 / 1TB Samsung 970 Evo / 1TB HDD / 17.3" UHD / Intel UHD 630 / Quadro P600 / 99W Battery / Linux distro: openSUSE Tumbleweed
OliverK1
SCSI Port
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎09-13-2018
Location: BE
Views: 58
Message 50 of 50

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

I still find the issue is not the 4K resolution, but the wide color space support.

 

A 1080p panel with the same colour features would have the same problem.

 

Otherwise I am a bit disappointed that almost a year later this is still not fixed.

 

As I wrote earlier, I have switched to the Dell Precision 7530. I bought the 1080p version, as it is a 15" size. It works without issues.

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