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QuietlyFocused
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Message 1 of 48

P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

Does the new P72 4K UHD wide gamut display have an sRGB compatibility mode?

 

I've been anxiously waiting for this model for nearly a year, and have yet to learn if it uses an updated chassis and heatsink design to avoid the P71 CPU throttling issues, but I cannot find anything in the online documentation or manuals about whether or not the wide gamut display option can be sufficiently "tamed".  The 100% Adobe color gamut spec sounds great for Photoshop, but for most everything else it can be a nightmare unless a wide gamut display has an excellent sRGB mode.

 

Does this laptop go between Adobe RGB and sRGB color spaces per an application preference, is it a manual hardware selection, or is there no sRGB support at all?

 

Also, if the 4K UHD display is installed, how does scaling to 1920x1080 look?  Sharp?  Blurry?  While content creation is my priority for this machine, I would like to be able to play an occasional game, which on the Quadro P5200 hopefully will be at least decent for the purpose even though it's not a dedicated gaming card.

 

I'm not really keen on getting a non-4K display, knowing how amazing 4K looks on recent Lenovo laptops.

 

Please, if you're familiar with the P72, share your comments on the 4K display, pros and cons.  This is a key purchase consideration.

 

Thanks!

 

JDGillis
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Message 2 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

I cannot personally confirm that it can be switched, but Anandtech has a good review of the P72, in which it stated the following.

 

 

Lenovo will offer two LCD options with its ThinkPad P72 portable workstation. Premium SKUs will come with a 17.3-inch 10-bit IPS LCD with a 4K Ultra-HD (3840×2160) resolution, a 400 nits brightness, and covering 100% of the AdobeRGB color gamut. Models that need to be cheaper and/or run on a battery longer will be outfitted with a non-touch Full-HD (1920×1080) IPS panel offering a 300 nits brightness and full coverage of the sRGB color range.

 

Hope that helps.

rimcrazy
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Message 3 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

I just did a test on my P72 3840x2160 display using a Spyder5 from Datacolor.  I ran the full suite of tests on it and I've attached the report.

 

From a gamut standpoint it does well.  It definitly suffers from some uniformity issues.  I don't typically use this as my main monitor, I have others for that.  As a portable solution it's fine.  I still think we are getting somewhat screwed as it is advertised as a 10 bit monitor but it obviously does not configure that way. I've not used a hardware detector but some others have posted that have and if they are to be believed, the display at least that they detected is in fact an 8 bit display not a 10 bit display.

 

UPDATE: Ok so we are getting screwed.  I just ran HWiNFO64 on my P72.  The display is reported at a B173ZAN01.0.    A quick Google search and Panelook has this monitor and it is, in fact, an 8-Bit display not a 10-Bit display.  It looks nice but it is not what is being advertised to us.  

Lenovo P72 E-2176M, P4200, 64Gb Non-ECC, 2x2Tb RAID 0 Sam 970EVO, 4Tb Sam 860 EVO
QuietlyFocused
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Message 4 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

JDGillis - I read that Anandtech pre-review in August, hence my initial concern at the time about general usability for the wide gamut 4K panel.  I know that the 1920x1080 panel is sRGB only, but I am still not interested in the lower resolution.

 

rimcrazy - Thanks for the Datacolor report.  Yes, gamut looks good if you need wide gamut, and uniformity has a lot left to be desired, but I could see where it would be acceptable for a portable, in that sense.  I guess it depends on what you're comparing it to.

 

However, practically speaking, can you please offer some observations about whether or not just about everything suffers from oversaturated colors?  At the most basic starting point, are your desktop icons unnaturally glowing?  Sure, Adobe RGB can be great for Photoshop, but it's maddening for most everything else unless there is a really good sRGB compatibility mode available in the hardware.

 

As for the first marketing paragraph in the Features section of the P72 product page at

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-p/ThinkPad-P72/p/22WS2WPWP72

it clearly states "100% Adobe color gamut and a 10-bit color depth".  Honestly, how on earth did you get an 8-bit display given this spec?  Do you see color banding on fine gradients?

 

I've seen other discussions elsewhere on how some people "got used to it" regarding the wildly overblown colors on a wide gamut display, but that's definitely not going to work for me.  Up until a couple years ago I had a wide gamut monitor with a decent sRGB simulation mode, but eventually I replaced it with a non-wide gamut monitor that has an excellent sRGB color space, and it looks much better and I'm way happier for it.

 

I've used Spyders in the past, but my current colorimeter is an X-Rite i1 Display Pro, and I'm relatively pleased with the results.  In the past, I did try to use a Spyder 3 or 4 to calibrate a wide gamut display, but it never really worked well enough to tame the Adobe RGB color space for general use.  I don't know if the i1 would do better at this, but I'd really like to know what I'm getting into before ordering the P72 with 4K wide gamut display panel.  Has anyone been able to calibrate the P72 4K display to do a good sRGB simulation, or is this not possible?

 

I would have thought a hardware compatibility solution would be the way to go, as it has been in the past on wide gamut desktop monitors, but I don't know if this can apply to a laptop screen, hence the title of this thread.

Mut
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Message 5 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

AFAIK the P72 has the  AU B173ZAN01.0  panel

Mut
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Message 6 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

In this forum ChrisM5 posted the specs about his 4k (UHD) Thinkpad P72 panel. (see here: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P-and-W-Series-Mobile/P72-4k-display/m-p/4230080

 

It definitly indicates that the panel used in the Tinkpad P72 4k (UHD) is the already well known AU B173ZAN01.0  panel from the manufacturer AUO (China)  FRU: 01YN100

 

Yes, the panel has only "true" 8-bit (10-bit rendered using Fame rate control ??) 

To learn the difference between true 10bit vs 8bit+FRC see here:  http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/id-3320965/true-10bit-8bit-frc.html

In short: "Frame Rate Control Technology is something LG and other companies use to practically enhance the colour depth by 2 extra bits". 

 

For all other specs, see the data sheet here: www.panelook.com/B173ZAN01.0_AUO_17.3_LCM_overview_25358.html

 

If you are interested in Reviews of this particular panel you can have a look at notebookcheck.com (here: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Predator-17-7700HQ-GTX-1070-UHD-Laptop-Review.223054.0.html  as part of the Acer Predator 17 (7700HQ, GTX 1070, UHD) Laptop Review

 

In addition Notebookcheck Germany did 2 reviews on 2 German manufactured (barebone) notebooks for Gamers, the Schenker XMG U716 and the Schenker XMG U726. Althrough the reviews are in German, you can probably understand the results and data. Again both Laptops uses the AU B173ZAN01.0 panel.

 

The manufacturer of the Thinkpad P71 and P70 panels was Panasonic  (Model: VVX17P051J00). This panel was less nice than the one used in the P72 now.

People asked Lenovo "P70: Lenovo, can we have AU Optronics B173ZAN01.0 (AUO109B) 17" 4K screen ?"(source: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P-and-W-Series-Mobile/P70-screen-bleed/td-p/3304282/page/2). You can find reviews of the P70 and the P71 @ notebookcheck.com.

 

For me the best thing about the P72-panel is that it oviously doesn´t use PWM (pulse-width modulation). I hope I am true… and IT REALLY IS flickering-free. So if there is someone who already owns a P72 PLEASE prove it). The backlight flickering was a P70/P71 deal-killer even if some bright folks out here told it is safe. No one knows and can prove. So hard workers or gamers should be on the safe side.

 

Anyway, to answer your question: the AU B173ZAN01.0  panel  reviews say  that the sRGB is 100%.

 

Hope my answer is helpful for your decision. Unfortunately I don´t have the P72 yet (I might order it  in a few weeks), so all I can say is from other sources. But I did some resarch…

 

Best,

Anne

rimcrazy
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Message 7 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

The colors are quite saturated in the display.  It is the very first thing I noticed.  For me it really does not bother me as I my main desktop displays are a Dell 3440x1440 and Dell 2560x1440.  Both are IPS displays and can be calibrated to give very very close color calibration between them so dragging a window from one display to another does not noticeably change the color displayed in the window.  

 

This business or baloney of calling 8 bit vs 10 bit is equivalent to a wider gamut is a bit silly IMHO.  Kind of like saying you did "... the Kessel run in 8 Parsecs".  Technically one has nothing to do with the other.  A display has or has not the ability to output a particular gamut of colors.  8bit, 10bit, 16 bit only means that within that gamut you have more or less granularity in the selection of colors.  Now reading the post of how the wider gamut is being achieved through the use of dithering is clever but the display is still addressed with 8 bits.  That means the granularity of colors is 256^3 or 16 + million colors.  10 bit color means I have 1+ billion colors.  One of these things is not equal to the other.  That is my only point.  

Lenovo P72 E-2176M, P4200, 64Gb Non-ECC, 2x2Tb RAID 0 Sam 970EVO, 4Tb Sam 860 EVO
Mut
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Message 8 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

I agree! 8 bit is NOT 10 bit. All the show made is kind like make fun of the costumers. It is a very good but "old" panel (2015), nothing to drum up business. But at least it is a step foreward compare to the P70/P71 - panel from Panasonic. And thanks god it is not GLOSSY/TOUCH!

ChrisM5
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Message 9 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?


@QuietlyFocused wrote:

 

However, practically speaking, can you please offer some observations about whether or not just about everything suffers from oversaturated colors?  At the most basic starting point, are your desktop icons unnaturally glowing?  Sure, Adobe RGB can be great for Photoshop, but it's maddening for most everything else unless there is a really good sRGB compatibility mode available in the hardware.


I know what you mean from my first experience with wide gamut displays a few years ago.

 

The color coordinates in the EDID seem to be fine so that even without calibration I didn't see any oversaturation, neither in factory installed Windows 10 (runing for a few seconds to check the 8 bit vs. 10 bit issue there as well) nor under my own Linux installation.

To be honest: I was even surprised how smooth my experience was without any fiddling from my side. But nowadays many important software (especially browser) take care of color profiles.

QuietlyFocused
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Message 10 of 48

Re: P72 sRGB compatibility mode?

TL;DR:  Does the new P72 4K UHD wide gamut display have an sRGB compatibility mode like on desktop wide gamut displays?

 

----------------

 

Mut / Anne - Thank you for the links you provided.

 

At http://www.panelook.com/B173ZAN01.0_AUO_17.3_LCM_overview_25358.html, the specs state that the AU B173ZAN01.0 panel is antiglare and without touchscreen, with 100% Adobe RGB.

 

At https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Predator-17-7700HQ-GTX-1070-UHD-Laptop-Review.223054.0.html, the review states that measured sRGB color space is 100% and Adobe RGB color space is 88%.  These coverage specs are repeated at the forum post you referenced https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P-and-W-Series-Mobile/P70-screen-bleed/m-p/3332949/highlight/t... indicating a previous request for this panel in future P7x workstation laptops as an improvement over the P70 panel at the time.  Thanks for pointing out that in key ways, the P72 panel is better than its predecessors.

 

I'm not sure if the difference in Adobe RGB coverage is due to the difference in graphics cards or how the panel is being utilized by the laptop manufacturer/assembler, given that the Lenovo spec states "100% Adobe color gamut and 10-bit color depth, supports over 1 billion colors" at https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-p/ThinkPad-P72/p/22WS2WPWP72, even though the manufacturer spec at the panelook.com site is 16.7M colors.  Is this perhaps due to the 8bit+FRC dithering?  Again, I've got to ask, for anyone who already has the P72, are you seeing color banding on fine gradients?  If not, then perhaps this quasi-simulated 10bit dithering is relatively useable as intended?  (Sorry for purists in either direction if my verbal semantics offended.)

 

Here are the links for the two Schenker laptops you referenced with same display panel, with a couple of relevant quotes:

(Language is selectable at top right of page.)

 

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Schenker-XMG-U716-Clevo-P775DM1-Notebook-Review.155740.0.html

 

"While most IPS screens accomplish an sRGB coverage of 70-90%, the 4K screen does not even falter in AdobeRGB (88%). However, that also involves some drawbacks: Standard programs look over-saturated at first glance. We got used to the strong colors after a while. ... The 4K screen's color accuracy is satisfactory to good. Although the grayscale levels and color balance could be somewhat better (see CalMAN screenshots), the screen at latest presents an excellent performance after calibration."

 

[So, is it permissible to interpret those comments as meaning that after calibration, the display colors are no longer oversaturated, or not?]

 

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Schenker-XMG-U726-Clevo-P870DM-Notebook-Review.153136.0.html

 

"The UHD display is especially the right choice for professionals requiring the widest possible color space. While the FHD display LG LP173WF4-SPD1 only covers 56% of AdobeRGB (see XMG U706 or XMG P706), the AU B173ZAN01.0 incorporated in our test model achieves almost 90%. However, the high coverage can also be disadvantageous, since standard applications appear over-saturated. Especially loud colors like orange or cyan look very intense. However, you should get used to this after a while."

 

[Ughhh... no, just no.  Will a colorimeter "fix" this or not?]

 

"The UHD display displays resolutions lower than 3840x2160 surprisingly crisp. If you reduce the pixel count to 1920x1080 for performance reasons, you do not have to accept blurry fonts or the like."

 

[First useful comment I've found on scaling for this display panel, and thankfully a positive one.]

 

 

rimcrazy said, "The colors are quite saturated in the display.  It is the very first thing I noticed."

 

ChrisM5 said, "The color coordinates in the EDID seem to be fine so that even without calibration I didn't see any oversaturation..."

 

 

Thank you all for your responses.  Albeit a small sample, there is not consensus on whether or not color is oversaturated on the P72 4K display, and/or whether or not it can be tamed with a colorimeter.  ChrisM5 had his panel replaced due to light bleeding, and received the same 8bit panel part as a replacement.

 

Most importantly, I still do not have an answer if the P72 4K display has a hardware/software selectable sRGB compatibility mode as is found on desktop wide gamut displays.

 

If I do a Google search for "b173zan01.0 srgb mode", I kid you not, the first and most relevant result is... this thread.  [Eyeroll]

 

Am I asking for the impossible here?  Or something outdated that no longer applies?  Or tech that just hasn't caught up at the laptop level?  Or just something that most people don't care about because they "get used to" the blindingly lush colors?  How do you even go between different machines to do color correction with that?

 

Aside from the endlessly non-entertaining topic of whether or not MS Windows will ever be able to handle wide gamut color spaces for most standard applications, how do people cope with this?  Do most graphics professionals who spend several grand on a workstation laptop convince themselves that it's just the non-wide gamut displays in the world that are the problem?  [A wee bit of sarcasm intended...]

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