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3 Posts

06-23-2021

Switzerland

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-06-23, 20:49 PM

@ green5178 wrote:

@ NateInIT wrote:

UHD only. Though I' much mroe concerned in this thread about the 480. I have 1 of 200? T14 gen 1 with this issue, I have 700 of almost 5,000 480s with this issue.

 

 

I asked because I have a Intel UHD/Nvidia graphics T14.  I observed this over the last 2 weeks of testing.  If I disable(not uninstall the Nvidia graphics) my problem goes away.  I also notice that Chromacam(what i use instead of green screen) uses a lot of the GPU.  Teams uses around 60-80% and Chromacam will use 30-50%.  Bottom line is it will cause GPU to hit 100% and thats when CPU gets capped at around 800MHz.  If i disable the Nvidia and it runs on Intel only then GPU goes down to 60-80% for some reason and CPU is no longer capped at 800MHz.  Next time I have meeting I am going to see if disabling hardware acceleration will help or not.  

 

Only @NateInIT responded last time.   So I will ask again.  For those of you with issues is it a Intel graphics only or the units with Intel/Nvidia graphics?

 

thanks!

 

I can confirm with a T14 Gen2 (20W00058MZ) which has an i7-1165G7 and a MX450 GPU. On Manjaro Linux I deactivate the MX450 GPU using bbswitch.

Then, when running a stress test I get:

  • Stress on 8 cores and GPU on: All cores capped at 400MHz within 1 or 2 seconds, core temp 52°C
  • Stress on 8 cores and GPU off: All cores capped at 1700-1800MHz within 3 or 4 seconds, core temp 56°C (still disappointing to be honest)
  • Stress on 1 core and GPU on: Concerned core capped at 1700-1800MHz within 3 or 4 seconds,  core temp 53°
  • Stress on 1 core and GPU off: Concerned core capped at 3400MHz after 10-15 seconds, core temp 67°C @ fan level 5

These numbers are not impacted by changing any BIOS options. I recently updated from the initial release of the BIOS (1.0x I think) to 1.36 and it feels that the problems started appearing then. I upgraded my BIOS because of the fan noise and it improved so Lenovo must have changed the thermal profiles etc. with that update.

 

How-to for switching the MX450 off (I don't see a BIOS option!):

  • Install bbswitch
  • sudo modprobe bbswitch
  • sudo tee /proc/acpi/bbswitch <<< OFF

Looking through the thread it seems not all devices of the same model have the problem, so this must also come from production variation, maybe some badly applied thermal paste. Therefore I will probably send mine in to get it fixed.

 

edit: I also tried replacing the open drivers (Nouveau) with the proprietary (Nvidia official) drivers, no effect.

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39 Posts

05-31-2021

United States of America

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-06-23, 22:07 PM

Variability in outcomes may also be explainable by environmental factors. For example I noticed differences in initial throttling behavior at 20C vs. 25C room temperature. More surprisingly, throttling is radically different when the laptop sits flat on a desk vs. when used on-lap (which used to be an advertised feature, but seems to be silently included in this series as well). So if conflicting reports come from different users, I'd suggest controlling for individual usage patterns.

 

Of course hardware variability can be a factor; but FWIW I had my system board exchanged due to throttling issues, and behavior was exactly the same after. (This was a P14s gen 2, architecture very similar to T14 gen 2). Thermal paste is unlikely to be a factor, because package temperature doesn't have a chance to rise before throttling kicks in.

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3 Posts

06-23-2021

Switzerland

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-06-24, 7:15 AM

Agreed that environment plays a role, however the GPU ON/OFF throttling is 100% reproducible. I personally do not see different throttling patterns depending on where the device is placed.

 

Regarding thermal paste: I wouldn't be so sure, the heat needs some time to propagate from the CPU to the cooling . So the junction temperature will see punctual, crazy increases until the heat can be dissipated. If the thermal management is very conservative you could throttle as soon as you see an increase in junction temperature and don't allow for temporary, high values.

 

I am not saying this is the case here but it is a possibility. It also doesn't explain why the core speed then stays at 400MHz (for me).

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39 Posts

05-31-2021

United States of America

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-06-24, 19:37 PM

If power management decides to throttle back the CPU, when the CPU temperature sensor (which is on the CPU) is still showing very low temperatures, then application of thermal paste has no impact on that. It only affects how heat is dispersed after the heat has been generated by the CPU. Re-applying thermal paste may help in cases where the system is already generating a lot of heat (which then might lead to thermal throttling).

 

It won't fix the instant-drop-to-400MHz problem (before heat can start to build up). Everything I've seen indicates that that's a BIOS problem, interacting with Windows system software. (But it's unlikely to be just the Windows software, since there are reports from people running Linux who experience similar problems.)

 

For me, disabling one of the DPTF devices seems to prevent the 400MHz issue, the system has acted pretty sensibly since then. Temperature doesn't build up much, even when it runs for a while at 3GHz+. But clearly there are many moving pieces, and I recognize that everyone's symptoms are a little different. We haven't found any solution yet, just some hacks that may work under the right conditions.

 

Still waiting for Lenovo to acknowledge that the issue exists :/

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2202 Posts

07-22-2010

United States of America

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-06-24, 21:27 PM

On my job I use Teams, Gotomeeting and Zoom.  I can confirm today while using Teams If i disable GPU hardware acceleration under settings for Teams I am no longer throttled even if I dont disable the Nvidia graphics.

 


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20 Posts

03-24-2021

United States of America

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-06-28, 12:07 PM

You know, never tried turning off hardware acceleration in the apps known to cause the issue. It unfortunately doesn't seem to make a difference for our devices, though that would make since as nothing with the seen problem has a discrete GPU to toggle anyways. Good idea for those that do!

 

Anyways, per the sister T14s thread:

 

- (Fix) Fixed an issue where system performance may down unexpectedly while heavy load application is running with battery charging.

 

That is pointed out something that has been done for other front-of-the-line lenovos and soon for the T14. I'm wondering if asking users to unplug from mains completely sees any change for the 480? Not something I've ever asked, and I assume all of my users generally are plugged in to mains in some fashion.

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73 Posts

03-31-2021

Poland

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-06-28, 18:04 PM

I am not sure if it's possible but I hope Lenovo will go through all models with the same bug and fix all of them.

From your initial post @NateInIT I see you have regular T480 and T14.

I haven't seen such experience on my T480s however for my friend it happened twice on T490s. And @tmarkussen reports that for T14s Gen2 which I will get next week.

Fingers crossed for Lenovo that they will approach it holistically and our nightmare will be over.

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11 Posts

02-09-2013

France

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  • Message 58 of 76

Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-07-19, 1:53 AM

@ jonasmanthey wrote:

@ green5178 wrote:

@ NateInIT wrote:

UHD only. Though I' much mroe concerned in this thread about the 480. I have 1 of 200? T14 gen 1 with this issue, I have 700 of almost 5,000 480s with this issue.

 

 

I asked because I have a Intel UHD/Nvidia graphics T14.  I observed this over the last 2 weeks of testing.  If I disable(not uninstall the Nvidia graphics) my problem goes away.  I also notice that Chromacam(what i use instead of green screen) uses a lot of the GPU.  Teams uses around 60-80% and Chromacam will use 30-50%.  Bottom line is it will cause GPU to hit 100% and thats when CPU gets capped at around 800MHz.  If i disable the Nvidia and it runs on Intel only then GPU goes down to 60-80% for some reason and CPU is no longer capped at 800MHz.  Next time I have meeting I am going to see if disabling hardware acceleration will help or not.  

 

Only @NateInIT responded last time.   So I will ask again.  For those of you with issues is it a Intel graphics only or the units with Intel/Nvidia graphics?

 

thanks!

 

I can confirm with a T14 Gen2 (20W00058MZ) which has an i7-1165G7 and a MX450 GPU. On Manjaro Linux I deactivate the MX450 GPU using bbswitch.

Then, when running a stress test I get:

  • Stress on 8 cores and GPU on: All cores capped at 400MHz within 1 or 2 seconds, core temp 52°C
  • Stress on 8 cores and GPU off: All cores capped at 1700-1800MHz within 3 or 4 seconds, core temp 56°C (still disappointing to be honest)
  • Stress on 1 core and GPU on: Concerned core capped at 1700-1800MHz within 3 or 4 seconds,  core temp 53°
  • Stress on 1 core and GPU off: Concerned core capped at 3400MHz after 10-15 seconds, core temp 67°C @ fan level 5

These numbers are not impacted by changing any BIOS options. I recently updated from the initial release of the BIOS (1.0x I think) to 1.36 and it feels that the problems started appearing then. I upgraded my BIOS because of the fan noise and it improved so Lenovo must have changed the thermal profiles etc. with that update.

 

How-to for switching the MX450 off (I don't see a BIOS option!):

  • Install bbswitch
  • sudo modprobe bbswitch
  • sudo tee /proc/acpi/bbswitch <<< OFF

Looking through the thread it seems not all devices of the same model have the problem, so this must also come from production variation, maybe some badly applied thermal paste. Therefore I will probably send mine in to get it fixed.

 

edit: I also tried replacing the open drivers (Nouveau) with the proprietary (Nvidia official) drivers, no effect.

@ jonasmanthey wrote:

@ green5178 wrote:

@ NateInIT wrote:

UHD only. Though I' much mroe concerned in this thread about the 480. I have 1 of 200? T14 gen 1 with this issue, I have 700 of almost 5,000 480s with this issue.

 

 

I asked because I have a Intel UHD/Nvidia graphics T14.  I observed this over the last 2 weeks of testing.  If I disable(not uninstall the Nvidia graphics) my problem goes away.  I also notice that Chromacam(what i use instead of green screen) uses a lot of the GPU.  Teams uses around 60-80% and Chromacam will use 30-50%.  Bottom line is it will cause GPU to hit 100% and thats when CPU gets capped at around 800MHz.  If i disable the Nvidia and it runs on Intel only then GPU goes down to 60-80% for some reason and CPU is no longer capped at 800MHz.  Next time I have meeting I am going to see if disabling hardware acceleration will help or not.  

 

Only @NateInIT responded last time.   So I will ask again.  For those of you with issues is it a Intel graphics only or the units with Intel/Nvidia graphics?

 

thanks!

 

I can confirm with a T14 Gen2 (20W00058MZ) which has an i7-1165G7 and a MX450 GPU. On Manjaro Linux I deactivate the MX450 GPU using bbswitch.

Then, when running a stress test I get:

  • Stress on 8 cores and GPU on: All cores capped at 400MHz within 1 or 2 seconds, core temp 52°C
  • Stress on 8 cores and GPU off: All cores capped at 1700-1800MHz within 3 or 4 seconds, core temp 56°C (still disappointing to be honest)
  • Stress on 1 core and GPU on: Concerned core capped at 1700-1800MHz within 3 or 4 seconds,  core temp 53°
  • Stress on 1 core and GPU off: Concerned core capped at 3400MHz after 10-15 seconds, core temp 67°C @ fan level 5

These numbers are not impacted by changing any BIOS options. I recently updated from the initial release of the BIOS (1.0x I think) to 1.36 and it feels that the problems started appearing then. I upgraded my BIOS because of the fan noise and it improved so Lenovo must have changed the thermal profiles etc. with that update.

 

How-to for switching the MX450 off (I don't see a BIOS option!):

  • Install bbswitch
  • sudo modprobe bbswitch
  • sudo tee /proc/acpi/bbswitch <<< OFF

Looking through the thread it seems not all devices of the same model have the problem, so this must also come from production variation, maybe some badly applied thermal paste. Therefore I will probably send mine in to get it fixed.

 

edit: I also tried replacing the open drivers (Nouveau) with the proprietary (Nvidia official) drivers, no effect.

 

What is your CPU package power usage? Isn't it limited to 5~6W, doesn't it the power limitation?

 

It match similar behavior on my P14s Gen 2i, when Lenovo intelligent cooling is disabled, which does limite the CPU package power to 5~6W (also limited to 5~6W when on battery)

 

I'm not sure for Linux, but you are clearly power limited on it.

 

I can add, that coming from a dual core t470s, it seems Lenovo add applied power limitation of these dual core CPUs to Quad core one.

Which is, I feel dumb, on full load with the two core asking all the juice, they throttle to 0.9/1Ghz witch still keep the OS perfectly fine.

On quad core it make them throttle to 0.39/0.40Ghz and put the system in an unusable state (and core are so slow that they need too much time to complete their job), as regarding for my CPU i7-1165G7, Intel specs (if I read them correctly) set the lower recommend package power to 12W (which is strangely twice of the 6W of dual core one...😁)

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20 Posts

03-24-2021

United States of America

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-07-20, 15:12 PM

Just a fun little example image for the gallery! Same machine, and it'll go from state on the left to the state on the right on a whim, almost always during a Teams meeting.

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73 Posts

03-31-2021

Poland

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Re:T-Series Throttling

2021-07-20, 16:33 PM

@NateInIT  looks like the same as with Carbon X1 and T14s Gen1. Infamous 0,39GHz throttling. Same data as mine on Intel XTU.

 

Maybe @gkondo or @Juraj_Lenovo could help here. Your first post is from March, maybe some more people or Lenovo themselves can replicate that. 

Hope you get this resolved.

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