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39 Posts

05-31-2021

United States of America

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-17, 21:47 PM

If what you're experiencing is extreme non-thermal throttling (the CPU is slowing down to ~0.4GHz, even though the system isn't running hot), I have a suggestion. Not a recommendation -- I don't know enough to say whether this is safe or has other side effects, or whether it will work at all for you. But it seems to work ok for me for now.

 

Following instructions here (using group policy) it's possible to selectively disable some system devices. The site has a list of devices to disable, but the only one I ended up disabling is "*INTC1040" (then restart). For now that seems to have stopped the extreme drops, system becoming unresponsive, etc.

 

This is on an 11th gen Intel CPU. I imagine the device ID might be different on other architectures. In device manager it's one of the "Intel(R) Dynamic Tuning Generic Participant" system devices (and after disabling it in group manager it becomes "Unknown device").

 

Clearly Lenovo should just fix it, but if you're stuck with it...

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383 Posts

09-04-2019

United States of America

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-18, 2:24 AM

Sounds like the T61 NVDA card coverup where Lenovo denied denied denied and ignored ignored ignored until someone filed a class action and lit their tail on fire.

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10988 Posts

08-17-2015

Slovakia

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-18, 12:59 PM

Hi all,

 

I'm following this topic and have forwarded the information from this discussion, but unfortunately I have not received any updates yet. maxt32, who participates in this discussion too, has submitted a service case and his machine for further investigation, so he might receive an update even sooner than myself. I will keep monitoring this thread and also internal communication and will let you all know as soon as I will get an update.

 

Best regards,

 

Juraj
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73 Posts

03-31-2021

Poland

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-18, 15:12 PM

@JDOnno great story :lol: I wonder what their IT teams ended up with. Did they escalate that? I guess we should push harder and harder, this is a big issue. I took over laptop from my CEO and during calls I also get laugh from people: "this is our (CEO's name) laptop, huh? :)

The thing I am afraid most is that I will get T14s Gen2 with same issue. I do not want to insert faulty model to company (replacing well working T440s-T490s) with this disease.

 

I also wonder how many T14s 20T0 are in Lenovo offices around the world. How come that wasn't escalated internally? Don't they have meetings? Don't they have meetings with many participants? Don't they use camera and sharing? Interesting.

 

@phgw I will check your solution with one of my infected users. After so many months I know this is not Thermal problem. I don;t even know if this problem is on Lenovo side, Intel side or Microsoft side. Many people points that other brands work well which points a little bit finger on Lenovo, but I am still unsure about that.

 

@Juraj_Lenovo We got case registered 1st of June. Today after 17 days they still didn't follow up on that case. So I still have T14s with me and no progress. We sent follow up email twice already.
I also raised case directly with Lenovo Poland through my great vendor who takes care of that matter and maybe next week we will send one unit directly to Lenovo. We did that last year but they couldn't replicate that issue easily and Windows 10 raised version so I accepted this as solved. But now I know a little bit more about that.

And thanks to great community here and so many exactly the same examples here I know now I am not alone and I am not delusion.

But like @JDOnno mentioned this case doesn't have "100% repeatable way of reproducing so it can be properly debugged." It just happens when on Teams with multiple participants.

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73 Posts

03-31-2021

Poland

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-18, 16:35 PM

@phgw 

I applied this registry from link you provided. Then I uninstalled 3 Intel devices from system devices (matching Device ID from registry) and I rebooted.

I didn't do any tuning in Intel nor ThrottlingStop

 

After that I stress tested machine and for the first time ever I think I see chart that makes sense to me.

When laptop gets heat Thermal Throttling kicks in.

Power Throttling also behaves predictable

And what's more important under super heavy load on both CPU and GPU frequency doesn't drop to unacceptable values. Lowest was 0,90GHz when I stressed with both Intel and FurMark. But that was on better performance. And this is (I am not an expert) how should behave that kind of machine.

 

This workaround could be complete breakthrough. I will now test that next week with those remaining people that left on T14s, so they can use Teams, Dropbox, Office, Browser and other stuff and we will see.

 

 

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20 Posts

05-31-2021

Spain

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-18, 21:03 PM

First of all, @Juraj_Lenovo thank you for your support and supervision; let’s hope we reach a definitive solution.

 

@phgw wow, this looks like a breakthrough! Also, it kind of “moves responsibility” from Lenovo to Intel… it’s Intel drivers what is apparently botching performance if that solution works as @maxt32 has tested.

 

Then what I don’t understand is why restarting the Lenovo Thermal Service makes the cpu freq temporarily go up after the issue happens… but there’s so many things I don’t understand about this after all :)

 

Now, if removing the power limit stresses the cpu VRM; maybe it’s not the best idea to remove it and means this throttling is happening for a good reason… if overheated, it will shut down for safety reasons; and I prefer the cpu freq to go down temporarily better than an unexpected power off. I guess with the correct equipment it can be measured if we’re on the safe side and it’s a wrongly -or too conservatively- set threshold or if effectively it’s throttling down to avoid unexpected shutdowns.

 

I don’t think there’s a specific temperature reading for VRM from the firmware, not even sure if in this specific processor package it’s integrated in cpu die or not. That guy in the blog was using a DIY solution to alleviate the excess heat…

 

 

 

 

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73 Posts

03-31-2021

Poland

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-18, 21:35 PM

@JDOnno and this is why I didn't set anything in ThrottlingStop nor Intel XTU. I only removed drivers and this issue I got when connected to RDP and the screen shuts down and then my performance goes haywire is fixed (today).

I also see something reasonable during tests on the charts.

 

0,39GHz issue is not yet replicated. I need to implement that registry for users so they can test to see if that happens.

When comes to Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution restart - it also doesn't make any sense to me. Like everything during last 10 months. I had hope for workaround too many times.

Maaaaybe maaaybe (that's farfetched theory I built 5 seconds ago) is that Intel is giving some statuses/codes to Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution driver and that's why it does what it does. Maybe if Intel is uninstalled then Lenovo Thermal Solution won't give bad codes to LITS and things will be fine. But I am not operating on such low level on a daily basis. So like I said... farfetched :)

 

Not sure if that's related but at least one person in the world has throttling also on AMD https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/k9ato5/massive_throttling_on_t14s_amd/

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39 Posts

05-31-2021

United States of America

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-18, 21:40 PM

I'm sure Intel doesn't make it easy. There seem to be, like, 4 different generations of CPU power management features all working together in some way. On top of that each integrator has their own tuning for their specific thermal design. But it's Lenovo's responsibility to ensure the whole package works as it should. Even if this was just a bad Intel driver, the issue has been known long enough for Lenovo to take some action (even if it's downgrading to a less buggy driver, or bypassing a buggy device). I do find reports about other brands as well, but much less. But I'm hopeful that Lenovo is close to a solution.

 

Chances are it's not one system that's broken, but that they interact in a bad way. That would explain why different methods (restarting a service, disabling a device) each "kind of help", in different ways.

 

In my own experiments I connected the extreme throttling to "on-lap" operation. Lenovo has in the past advertised a feature to make the system "run cooler" when used on-lap (to avoid discomfort?). In a semi-controlled test I ran the same ~10 minute load 3 times with the laptop flat on a desk, and 3 times held on may lap (but equally well ventilated). On-desk it ran at full speed, every time; on-lap it started severely throttling (down to 5W) very soon after the load increased. So I suspect the system is able to handle the temperature just fine, and this is just a misguided attempt to improve usability.

 

Not saying that all experiences of non-thermal throttling are due to this particular bug. Please draw your own conclusions. It's definitely possible that circumventing these extreme throttling events causes some kind of damage. (But IMO if the laptop really weren't able to sustain at least a ~15W CPU load under normal conditions, the design would be broken to begin with.)

 

 

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20 Posts

05-31-2021

Spain

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-19, 14:57 PM

@phgw 100% agree, that makes sense... cool finding with "on-lap" operation. Thing is, this only happens when on AC power, if I am using the computer on my lap, for sure it is not connected to AC. On battery mode, everything is throttled, to control thermals I guess, and that is good... I really don't want to fry my lap :) 

 

The Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution Service restart "solution" may be caused because of interaction with Intel's own DPTF. My guess is both services act on the same set of hardware features and somehow there's some buggy interaction between both. A 100% invented and hypotetical scenario:

 

- Lenovo ITSS evaluates current conditions and lowers total TDP to 10W.

- Intel DPTF, under same conditions, lowers TDP to 5W. Lenovo ITSS may or may not notice this.

- When restarting Lenovo ITSS, reevaluates current conditions and raises TDP to 10W again.

- Until Intel DPTF realizes, it stays at 10W, then it lowers back to 5W again.

- Removing DPTF drivers will make the Intel solution not interact and Lenovo ITSS is good to work on it's own parameters, because Lenovo know their hardware and the safe values for thresholds.

 

This is all thinking from a software perspective; but probably there's some Embedded Controller acting on its own too: From what I know about system integrators, they get a reference model from Intel and then they fine-tune to the specific device (taking into account thermal dissipation, ventilation, "safe" thresholds for the vendor, etc.) and set custom firmware parameters for each device model. Maybe that's why it's worse with the latest BIOS, some threshold may have gone haywire or whatever.

 

Looks like a complex problem to debug, so many components interacting with each other.... 

 

As a -mostly jokingly- idea, maybe Lenovo could diff the changes between the latest bios and the previous one and see what changed.... whatever changed, can be a lead to where the problem really is, if they changed some threshold up maybe they need to change it back down or whatever :)))

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73 Posts

03-31-2021

Poland

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Re:T14s extreme throttling (<0.5ghz instead of 3-4.5ghz)

2021-06-24, 12:06 PM

Hello, I have a feedback after few days with disabled DPTF.

I have 3 users on T14s 20T0

1) me on RDP

2) user with BIOS 1.15 and enabled DPTF

3) user with BIOS 1.17 and disabled DPTF

 

And I have three separate issues on T14s.

1) 0,39GHz issue most often when Teams call - that basically this post is about

2) issue on RDP that CPU goes below 1GHz when screen goes off after timeout

3) NEW issue when working on laptop when CPU goes below 1GHz (possible after sleep). So when computer is idle I see in Task Manager 1,8GHz and it varies every second. But when I put some load like open one tab I get instantly 0,93GHz then 0,8 then 0,5. It doesn't stuck like on 1st issue on 0,39GHz but it varies from 0,5-1,8GHz. Not possible to work. What always helps is restart of Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution. What's also important here with this issue is that it also happens on battery. So here unplugging power adapter or plugging back has no effect.

 

So conclusions:

1) we didn't observe 0,39GHz issue during last 5 days

2) disabling DPTF solves issue with RDP when screen goes off.

3) disabling DPTF doesn't solve low CPU issue when working (I think after sleep). What always helps is restart of Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution.

 

Another conclusion.

I wrote here that 1.17 BIOS made it worse. But I have now one user on 1.15 and one on 1.17 and it's tragic for both of them. So I don't think now 1.17 BIOS made it worse. It must have been some update from Microsoft. Lenovo didn't release anything but Intel Management Engine 14.0 Firmware 14.1.53.1649 17 June.

But those issues started earlier so my bet goes to Microsoft.

 

This is crazy. Everything I am writing about this T14s sounds crazy to me. I have now more questions than answers after those 5 days. Those two test users are completely not related to each other, we do not set any policies for laptops. And problems for users started same time. But we have now hot weather in Poland over 30C so maybe this is issue. But only one of the users is in hot place and another in cold.

And temperatures reported by CPU for both cases are normal and we have such weather every year so how could that be a problem? And Lenovo Thermal Solution helps for some time (probably until another modern sleep)

 

So my bets still goes to Lenovo Intelligent Thermal Solution getting some bad codes from somewhere (DPTF, BIOS, ???) and not managing properly CPU behaviour. This is disaster what happens now :/

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