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Re: T510 + i5 540M = Solved - terrible whine noise!

Solved - mostly. Bad news is it's a hardware hack. 

 

http://s169341379.websitehome.co.uk/

 

Don't blame me if you try it and break your machine....

 

N.

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Re: T510 + i5 540M = Solved - terrible whine noise!

Wow, N.  Great job figuring that out.  I'm certainly not up to opening up my laptop and soldering new parts in, but I'm glad there is at least a solution for those who are.

 

I wonder if this is something that could help Lenovo solve this for the rest of us.

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Re: T510 + i5 540M = Solved - terrible whine noise!

[ Editado ]

natbuk,

I was worried for you. But thanks for your sharing! Let me refer your work to the engineering. I would like to know what they think about it.

Best regards,
Cleo


T410, x240

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Mensaje 154 de 468 (3.824 Visitas)

Re: T510 + i5 540M = Solved - terrible whine noise!

[ Editado ]

Hi Cleo,

 

Thanks for your attention and for taking the trouble to respond - I'd be very interested to hear from the engineering team -don't worry too much about me - I've designed dozens of DC-DC switchers over the years, so I wasn't poking about inside randomly  - well, not entirely randomly, anyway!
.
I'll try to explain my current understanding of the problem (though I only spent an hour or two fixing it, and most of that was getting the thing apart and back together!)
.
The main issue is that those ceramic caps (including C847) which are there to bypass (smooth the current demand on) the20v input, are insufficient and as a result, the 20V is bouncing around. 
.
In a typical buck converter topology (which I believe the circuit in question is - though I don't have circuit diagrams, obviously),the duty cycle of the PWM is proportional to the load and also to the difference between the input voltage and the target voltage. In a steady-state (i.e. with constant load, output voltage and input voltage) all is well (evidenced by reports that disabling the power management cures the noise issue) - however, since we have a changing output voltage (due to dynamic voltage requirement of the CPU as a result of agile core voltage requirement versus clock frequency), the circuit attempts to move the output voltage up and down depending, ultimately, on the CPU load. When the voltage target changes,this creates a short-term current surge (mainly to charge the output bulk capacitance) - and this places a dynamic current requirement on the input supply - this is all fine, provided the supply can supply it. My observation of the changing voltage across c847 suggests it cannot, or rather, there is excessive impedance between the supply (the battery or the mains adapter) and this point in the circuit. 
.
So, as the voltage target is increased, this creates a corresponding transient current demand on the input supply - because a) the input bypass capacitance is too small and/or b) the impedance between the actual supply (mains adapter, battery) is too high/too inductive - this causes the input voltage to sag (by as much as a volt or two), which in turn, changes the duty cycle requirement. But, as the duty cycle changes, so does the demand on the input supply and correspondingly, so the sag changes, resulting in a different duty cycle requirement, and so the whole thing goes 'b'doiiiiinng'. In other words, there is an inadvertent feedback loop causing instability. This would not be a problem per-se except for the fact that inductors can work as loudspeakers (due in part to magnetostriction effects in the core, but often more significantly, due to physical forces created by the magnetic fields on and by the windings within the inductor) where the acoustic output is (approximately) proportional to the rate of change of current through the inductor. So, as the current through the inductor goes 'b'doiiinnng', so do the physical forces in the inductor, and consequently, the acoustic output also goes 'b'doinnnnnggg' at a few kHz resulting in whistles and whines. 
.
My 'fix', increasing the bulk capacitance on the input to the switcher, provides a localised current supply and reduces the sag.It's a bit of a brute-force approach, but in the absence of further circuit data, the easiest to apply. Another easy approach is to find a better (less transductic) inductor (L75 is the main culprit). 
.
I know about these issues because I've had to fix numerous design problems like this (sometimes my own designs!). This is analog electronics, difficult to get just-right, and a problem in multi-dimensions (due to PCB layout and non-ideal components), but that's why we build prototypes.
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What is disappointing is that no-one in Lenovo noticed the problem right up to production, and end-users who care about having the best product have paid top-dollar for a machine with such a petty, but extremely annoying issue. 
.
When I bought my T510, I wanted the best machine I could buy. Quite frankly, I didn't really care how much it cost - I sit in front of this thing 15+ hours a day and it is my main tool with which I earn my living. 
.
With so much fan-fare (no pun intended) about quiet fans inspired by owls wings(!?), silent SSDs etc. it seems a little incongruent that no one cared about the much-more irritating whining noise. 
.
My only hope is that a late component source change (for L75) resulted in noise which had not existed during the various prototypes. I know how much components like an extra capacitor cost in quantitiy - and even assuming a20:1 markup by the time the customer pays up, I'd have happily stumped up an extra $1 to avoid this problem. 
.
Thanks again for your time and interest. I hope Lenovo can find a workable solution for it's loyal customers. For me, I have resolved the issue sufficiently that I probably can't justify spending any more time on it - I have other problems to solve (ones which I can bill someone for!). 
.
Best regards,
.
N.

 

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Mensaje 155 de 468 (3.597 Visitas)

Re: T510 + i5 540M = Solved - terrible whine noise!

[ Editado ]

New T510 with high pitched whine. Volume level changes intermittently. Sometimes its not much of an issue, others its so annoying using the T510 isn't possible. I undestand why people are returning the unit. I'm in my late 40s and its easy to hear the high pitched whine.

 

Early tests show -

1) Louder when on battery
2) Louder with USB wireless mouse installed
3) No change in volume with USB flash drive
4) No change in volume with USB HD

 

Specs:

Intel Core i5-560M Processor (2.66GHz, 3MB L3)
15.6" HD Anti-Glare Display with LED Backlight
Intel HD Graphics with Always On USB for T510
2 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1067MHz SODIMM Memory (1 DIMM)
320 GB Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
Multi Recorder Optical Drive (12.7mm)
6 cell 2.6Ah Li-Ion Battery - Dual Mode
Camera, 2.0 MP
Intel Centrino Ultimate-N 6300 (3x3 AGN)
No WWAN support
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 32

 

Note -  I do not have this issue on an Acer and did not have it on a Gateway this unit replaced.

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Re: T510 + i5 540M = Solved - terrible whine noise!

natbuk - It's a impressive work done!
Almost every thinkpad is suffering from this issue. I own t410s and it's whining too...
and
Come on Lenovo "Engineers"! - you've got solution on plate - FIX IT! - and stop being cheap! We pay enough (hmmm... in Europe) for thinkpad to deserve best components and engineering.
DAT
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Re: T510 + i5 540M = terrible whine noise!

Just wanted to say that I was about to order a T510 until I discovered this thread. I would still like to do so, but not until this issue is sorted out.

 

I too have encountered situations professionally where inductors and capacitors produce noise, plus the reverse, where they act as microphones. So I think that natbuk’s solution sounds very sensible and plausible, not to mention brave. I’d be tempted to apply the fix if I encountered the same issue, but not if it would affect the warranty.

 

Question for Lenovo: would it be feasible to have an on-site service engineer apply the fix during an on-site warranty call-out?

T540p / 64-bit Win7 / 840 Pro SSD / Ultradock.
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Mensaje 158 de 468 (3.477 Visitas)

Re: T510 + i5 540M = terrible whine noise!

Lol, it seems like us up here in Canadia are less affected by this issue. I'm four for four in terms of "no-whine" with i5-540M's.

W520: 2960XM, Q2000M @ 1091/1380, 32GB RAM, 500GB&750GB HDD & 500GB SSD, FHD&MB168B+
X61T: L7500, 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD, XGA screen, Ultrabase
W550s: 5600U, K620M at 1164/1281, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, 3K touchscreen
X200s: SL9400, 6GB RAM, 64GB SD card, WXGA+ screen
TPT1: 1839-23U
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Re: T510 + i5 540M = terrible whine noise!

 

@ ColonelONeill

 

What the are specs of your T510s? Any USB devices connected? Running from AC or battery?

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Re: T510 + i5 540M = terrible whine noise!

[ Editado ]

They're not mine; they belong to my friends.

Their hardware specs are almost identical:
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-and-newer-T-series/Survey-Recent-T-Series-Battery-Life/m-p/307...
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-and-newer-T-series/Survey-Recent-T-Series-Battery-Life/m-p/310...

The two T410's:
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-and-newer-T-series/Survey-Recent-T-Series-Battery-Life/m-p/309...
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-and-newer-T-series/Survey-Recent-T-Series-Battery-Life/m-p/307...

None of them have reported whine issues. I'm not sure about how often they use USB devices, but all of them are university students, so I presume they'll be on both AC and battery significantly.

 

Side note: does it still whine if you run on AC only and plug it into a voltage stabilized power strip?

W520: 2960XM, Q2000M @ 1091/1380, 32GB RAM, 500GB&750GB HDD & 500GB SSD, FHD&MB168B+
X61T: L7500, 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD, XGA screen, Ultrabase
W550s: 5600U, K620M at 1164/1281, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, 3K touchscreen
X200s: SL9400, 6GB RAM, 64GB SD card, WXGA+ screen
TPT1: 1839-23U
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