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Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 17:23 PM

I think eventually we will know the solution. 

It is a yes and no question:

Yes: Lenovo will come up a fix on BIOS to enable the SATAII

NO: Lenovo can't fix the problem coz it relates to hardware fix.not software.


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Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 18:24 PM

We already know the solution, Ronan. Watch the discussion more carefully.


And the  answer is NO, Lenovo will not provide a BIOS fix to enable SATA-II.

"Since everything is working according to specs" , as Mark gently put it.

And all of you who thought they were getting SATA-II compatible laptop - all of you can't read specs, for nothing

since, as Mark eloquently put it -

"With regard to SATA II - I believe the term refers to the overall spec, and not just the sub element - the ability to transfer at 3Gb/sSATA II is not necessarily synonymous automatically with 3Gb/s transfer rates, although people do tend to treat it that way conversationally."


See ? It is all simple and plain.


Mark , correct me if I am wrong anywhere - and do us a favor,- come up with simpler "press release", please, -

so we wouldn't have people still hoping  to get it fixed. So they could understand better , that they cannot understand and

read specs for the laptops.


"In the spirit of this helpfull message board"

Message Edited by kotovsky7 on 02-25-2009 10:27 AM

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Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 18:52 PM

Sure, the whole issue is that customers are not literal enough to read specs.


Yet, Lenovo did helluva job to disable functionality of Intel's platform it's like car manufacturer uses 300 horse power engine but the car can use only 150 - what's fine, but it cannot be advertised as 300 HP car!


Anyway, this is not worth of pursuing additionally since the company's strategy is clear enough. I can just say that Thinkpad is fading away for sure, at least in professional community, software development industry in particular.


Again, not because of technical constraints, there's always gonna be bunch of them on any platform, but because of lack of communication or even worst because of inconsistent communication.



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Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 19:08 PM

The T61 spec includes SATA 3.0Gb/s.  The speed is stated explicitly.


For instance, here's a page from Lenovo's system reference:  http://ryanclark.net/tabook_excerpt.gif


Nobody has trouble reading the spec.  Lenovo has simply decided to ignore it.


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Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 19:19 PM

Ryan ,


this where "tactical move" by Lenovo is - see, the chipset DOES support SATA-II, 3.0 Gb/s .

 BUT , it is written nowhere , that ultrabay or main drive will operate at such speeds , nifty , huh ? :)


It gets even better , on this Tabook, under section "Serial ATA Disk" - it clearly says "Sata 1.5 Gb/s" , which,

of course , reffers to the speed of the main drive.  And there is no mentioning the speed at which ultrabay 

operates - so, whoever did the specs made a splendid job - there is nothing there that doesn't correspond

to how laptops really operate :)


The other question is that it was written in such a way on purpose. But in this particular case , as I said before, -

even if all of you, customers , would come over and  complain, Lenovo would still be able to proove that all of us ,

customers, just misread the specs. :)




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  • Message 106 of 254

Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 19:39 PM


  Can we stop using SATA II. Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#SATA_II_misnomer


  How can anyone say that they support SATA 3Gb/s but doesn't actually support 3 Gb/s?  That just doesn't make sense to me.  The speed is part of the spec otherwise they'd have a different name.  Why is this so hard to understand?  If they only support the spec partially, they should have noted that.  Sine there is no caveat we can only expect full support.  The drive speed you noted is simply the drive speed.  Someone reading the spec can and should be able to expect that because the laptop supports SATA 3 Gb/s when Lenovo supports a drive at 3Gb/s then the system should be able to fully utilize it. 

  I see no example in the computer industry where if someone states SATA 3Gb/s support anyone should expect anything other than 3Gb/s transfer speeds and not 1.5Gb/s.  Unless you can show me precedence I see no reason why Lenovo should not act to resolve this issue.

  Let's be real here.  Lenovo stated a spec, now they need to own up to supporting it.  Anything less is considered bait and switch.




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  • Message 107 of 254

Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 19:58 PM

Hi Mark,



in the spirit of the forum I'll sum things up:




At the time of the buy Thinkpad X6 Series was (and is still) promoted as SATA II capable.


For further details look at Lenovo's own tabook.pdf. Don't try to puzzle your own version of SATA II.


SATA II means full 3GBit/s support and not only some features of SATA II. (At least to all normal and business customers and for some tech-freaks anyway.)


All the specifications of the used Intel chipset clearly state that this chipset provides SATA II at 3GBit/s.


Lenovo never mentioned the bottleneck of 1,5GBit/s.


Neither in commercials nor in manuals. Neither did Intel.



SATA II with 3GBit/s does *NOT* work in X6 notebooks.


You gave a somewhat crude explanation about this. Afaik you try to teach us that the converter chip in the Ultrabase (wich can be used for DVD/CD or hardrive for example) doesn't work reliable at SATA II speed.


Is that right ?


So then Lenovo really cuts off Intels (motherboard) Chipset capability because of a design-flaw in the ultrabase ?



Yeah I can imagine what happened here:


"He Pete, we have a problem with SATA II speed and the Ultrabase. Don't tell anybody. We'll patch the Bios and nobody can figure out. So we don't have to recall all Ultrabases." (this is fictional)


Well Mark if I try to read between your lines, you even admit that all current hardrive (and maybe Lenovo SSDs) firmwares are limited to SATA I.


Right ?


So rather than using new conversion chips for Ultrabase or designing new Ultrabases or telling customers about the problem, Lenovo choose the worst option of all: They capped speed to 1,5GBit/s to remain "compatibility".


While I understand it from a Sales/Production costs view, I can't accept this from a consumer view. And many others never will. 



You think that hiding your mistakes with the Ultrabase design will work ?


Don't think so !



A technician of Intel once stated this comment:


"Keep in mind that the chipset can be blocked by the laptop manufacturer in order to support only certain types of hard drives."


Well read between the lines here and  for me it sound very clear that it's not Intels fault or a buggy ICH chipset.




Mark please don't take this personal. I'll try to keep up with the point as good as I can but:


Do you think telling people how to read the specsheet right or *demanding* from us customers to show *you* working laptops of your competitors is the right measure here ?


Is it up to us to show you ? Really ?


Come on boys, get your homework done.


SSD's are coming and so are your problems. You can't hide.


"Work as designed" ?


Is that your official statement ? Your final word ?


Then get this word out to the press and inform your customers.


If Lenovo doesn't well you surely don't mind if we all here will do so.


We are not living in the time of newspapers. It's the internet and word get's out by the blink of an eye.


On the otherhand, well if this is an official statement, than you have nothing to loose, right ? Think over ...


How much pressure do we have put on Lenovo to sort things out ?
Some articles in Computer magazines ? (Don't read this as a thread, please).





We are neither pleased with your explanation, your answers nor Lenovos / your style of handling this.


You already read that some customers are not willing to buy your laptops anymore next time.


A bad reputation spreads faster than all former excellent work.


Please clear things up or at least try to get them cleared.


You had some suggestions on how to enable support in BIOS from your customers. They suggested a solution to you !


This would have been your job.


We all expect a clear answer and even more a solution to give the customers what they paid for and what is advertised.


If this is not the case, I really don't know what happens next ...








(Please take not offense, as it's not you personally, but the issue we all try to solve here)






I know it's difficult but can we let this post be the last till somebody is willing to answer ?


I have the feeling that all further posts only give Lenovo time and people get lost here ...


Just a thought.

Bump if you agree.
Message Edited by HanzGermany on 02-25-2009 03:31 PM

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Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 23:16 PM

I dont know what I should say about the SATAII issue on T61/X61/t.


1. X61/T61 mobo does fully support SATA300, and I got the confirmation from 3 different intel techs. when I first bought the Intel SSD, i did hard drive test, the reading was 130MB/s.  I called intel, and they told me my laptop had no problem to handle sata2 transfer rate, unless Lenovo did something on the laptop.  So, I called Lenovo tech support, and got yelled by one tech.


2.  When I bought my X61t, I saw no where stated the laptop was limited to Sata1.5Gb/s performance. If I saw it, I would't post these thing here. There was no warning on the website, or the user manual. This is the main reason why I said I didn't get what I paid for, it is  a $2000++ laptop, not $400 or $500. 


3. How many custiomers know TABOOK? my guess is maybe 20%. when I read the tabook, it clearly states SATA3.0Gb/s, and no sign saying the laptop only perform at SATA1.5Gb/s. I know there is no tabook in lenovo website now coz I just did a search, and no result given.


We still need to thank Mark to help us.  


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Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-25, 23:39 PM

Ladies ,


I agree with Hanz - we've said enough  . Any more posts will only clutter the thread .


Lets WAIT and do not post anything else here. 


If , till Friday 27/02/09 , there will be no further clarification ( as I mentioned before - there shouldn't be any ) - 

we will assume that previous statement by Mark holds ,  which was : 


Lenovo's official position is that the Santa Rosa systems are working as designed.


hold your horses and wait calmly.


I also suggest we move further discussion to thinkpads.com, since, as Mark mentioned, rules of this board 'forbid' us to discuss anything , that will 'interrupt' normal flow of business @ Lenovo,  which would include any further litigation discussion, since, as mentioned before, that would be the only way to make Lenovo act on it's mistakes.





Message Edited by kotovsky7 on 02-25-2009 03:40 PM
Message Edited by kotovsky7 on 02-25-2009 03:41 PM

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  • Message 110 of 254

Re: T61 Support SATA II ?

2009-02-26, 0:34 AM

ronan_zj wrote:

I know there is no tabook in lenovo website now coz I just did a search, and no result given.





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