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Darrsol
SCSI Port
Posts: 35
Registered: ‎11-20-2019
Location: US
Views: 626
Message 261 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

Even more ridiculous to me is the fact that we, the users, are the ones giving updates, advising each other and telling outcome of trials, instead of Lenovo staff, which remain, inexplicably, silent....

 

I (finally, after 1 month waiting) got a call yesterday from the escalation of my case. A Lenovo rep told they would send me a replacement and they will inspect my laptop. I sent him an email with my address and the features of my P1 Gen 2 with all my customizations as he requested. Still waiting. As oppossed to what others have said, my experience with customer service is all but pleasant: lack of response, unfriendly unsupportive staff, I have to keep pushing sending messages, leaveing voice mails and still have to wait without updates or anything forever. 

joloriquelme
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Posts: 86
Registered: ‎11-30-2019
Location: CL
Views: 602
Message 262 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

I contacted support past Monday for a keyboard replacement, even knowing that there are near-zero chances that this would fix the issue. The part wasn't available in Chile so I will have to wait, who knows how much time...

Now that I saw one user experience, I was hopping that the "Dolby Atmos branded keyboard" would resolve this issue, but I am seeing that it will not the case with a second case and it will even worse the notebook thermals. I don't know even if I will receive that part or I will receive the same keyboard. 

If this problem isn't resolved by the end of January, I will return the notebook and I will never, ever, recommend or work with Lenovo again. 

The disappointment is so big. I would never trust in a tech review anymore. This was the "ultimate" notebook and it's a garbage.

morozsm
Punch Card
Posts: 15
Registered: ‎12-08-2019
Location: US
Views: 582
Message 263 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

@joloriquelme Dolby atmos labeled keyboard doesn't resolve the issue unfortunately.

Some people may report improvements, however, it's hard to say for sure, without several days of heavy testing. 

What definitely wasn't resolveed, is what, I believe, is the root of the issue. Here is my observations and way to reproduce:

 

1. If you press 'asd' keys very fast, or simultaniously (to reproduce for sure) - you will get 'dsa'

2. If you press 'sdf', you'll get 'fds'

3. But! If you press 'dfg' you will get nothing on linux or beep + nothing on windows/BIOS. 

Same thing with som other combinations, for example 'hjk', 'bnm', 'yui' and some other. These are easily reproduceable. But combinations may not be sequent.

 

So, my idea is, that keyboard controller, which is querying keyboard matrix can not redister some key combinations, like on very cheap and crappy keyboards. So, one option - keyboard controller is not sending correct scan codes to BIOS, another one - BIOS can not handle these scan-codes. 

Another interesting thing, that keyboard, trackpoint and touchpad are connected to system not via USB, but via i8042 controller, which is old as a mammoth **bleep** PS/2 interface controller. Running in this case in extended multiplexing mode, to support more then 2 devices. Why do lenovo uses it instead much more modern, fast and reliable USB unterface - is the question... Probably bcause IBM design... Smiley Happy But PS/2 interface itself shouldn't be an issue. It's just an observation...

 

Thechincally, we can probably trace what's running via PS/2 bus, and see, if keyboard controller sends correct scan codes to i8042, and find out for sure, if it's BIOS or keyboard controller. Keyboard controller is more likely, because it beeps, which probably means, that keyboard sends out some undecodable trash. Similar things occured on some old chap PS/2 keyboards, when you overwhelm bufer, it beeped.

But **bleep**, i don't want to do reverse engeneering, i just want to use laptop i've paid for...

 

PS. Definitly the issue was not resolved by keyboard replacement. Still fixing missing characters in this post...

Darrsol
SCSI Port
Posts: 35
Registered: ‎11-20-2019
Location: US
Views: 573
Message 264 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

I also noticed the inverted combination of keys from time time, but didn't get to test it like you did. good job. Because of things like this I also feel this is a software-related issue. The keyboard seems to work fine but for some reason the laptop is not able to interprete the strokes correctly. I am also noticing lately that although it keeps being quite random, I am seeing that "o" is especially being missed compared to other keys. Probably not important but there it is. 

I also forgot to say that, at least in my P1 Gen 2 acquired in late October, I have the Dolby Atmos on the left bottom corner of the keyboard frame as well. It came like that from the beginning, of course with the keyboard issue problem.

morozsm
Punch Card
Posts: 15
Registered: ‎12-08-2019
Location: US
Views: 566
Message 265 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

@Darrisol from what I understand, how keyboard controllers should work, controller in keyboard querying keys and saves scan codes to internal FIFO buffer. (when buffer overflows - beeps. At least it worked that way 20 years ago Smiley Happy ). Then it sends buffer content to bus, PS2 in this case. So inverted keys, in my opinion, most likely related to how keyboard controller stores scan codes in it's buffer and sends to bus.

Also, guys, it would be great if you can report, were you able to reproduce:

1. reverted characters order.

2. beep and no input on 'dfg' combination.

joloriquelme
Punch Card
Posts: 86
Registered: ‎11-30-2019
Location: CL
Views: 528
Message 266 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

Maybe there is a low level Hardware that it's causing some kind of conflict. There are people without this problem.

Does everybody has Windows Hello IR camera? Is there anyone that don't have it?
shrubbery
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Posts: 2
Registered: ‎11-01-2015
Location: US
Views: 484
Message 267 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

There's been a lot going on in this thread and it might be important to level set a few things:

 

  • the "press `asdf` simultaneously and see the output" doesn't feel particularly relevant; thinkpads all the way back to my T420s have shown an "out of order" behavior here, due to how the keys are scanned. Your keyboard displaying this behavior isn't necessarily relevant to the problem, although I do believe Thinkpads have some unique behaviors in this regard. I have the following machines which have this behavior, but don't exhibit dropped keypresses: T420s, T450, T450s, T480s. For what it's worth, I might imagine this could cause issues for extraordinarily fast typists; I type 80+ wpm and don't find it affecting me. In any case it would only cause swapped letters, not dropped ones.
  • The "beep" when pressing too many simultaneous keys has been present in many systems for a long time, and isn't indicative of a problem. This is due to rollover, which is when a keyboard has more simultaneous keystrokes than it's able to process. It is probably not at issue here either: many past thinkpads can only handle so many simultaneous keys, which isn't unique to thinkpad keyboards in any regard. If you experience the "beep" during normal typing, then maybe you're so fast that you've somehow managed to trigger the issue. If you mash a number of keys and experience the "beep": that's normal, I'm afraid. It's not a hardware problem. You can be unhappy with the fact that Lenovo doens't support unlimited key rollover, but they are not alone in this regard.

I do think there's a hardware issue at play. I've had two X1E2 laptops, the first I returned due to this issue. The second behaves far better, but not at all perfect, and I've decided it's within acceptable tolerances to keep the machine. The things I can tell you between the two laptops are:

 

  • The keys feel different. The keyboard which exhibited more issues had a "squishier" feel. Over time, it became better as the keyboard wore in. The keyboard on the machine I kept, which exhibited fewer issues, had a better and more "click-y" feel out of the box.
  • In general, it seems like the keys have issues with where they actuate, which is true between both machines, and not isolated to the keyboard keys themselves: it also exhibits in the mouse buttons (I'm a trackpoint user)

The actuation can be tested outside of the keyboard: for example, the mouse buttons exhibit issues where you can simulate multiple clicks without a "click". This is easily testible by selecting text: I can double- and triple-click without feeling a "click" on the mouse keys, just by adjusting the pressue on the mouse buttons. I can perform a similar operation on the keyboard keys themselves: pressing the button multiple times by altering the pressure that's applied to the key itself. This can be replicated on the keyboard keys also; it's difficult to replicate in cases where key repeat is present (such as typing in a word processor) but can be more easily displayed in games where holding, releasing, and pressing keys again has immediate effect. I find that by altering pressure on the keys I can actuate them without a "click", which is not something I can perform on my older thinkpads. I feel like this issue is down to the sensitivity of the keys themselves, and having an actuation point not aligned with the key "click", and not necessarily a firmware problem in the keyboard.

alfa84
Core Memory
Posts: 22
Registered: ‎01-15-2020
Location: CH
Views: 473
Message 268 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

I have IR camera.

We could do a matrix with X1 specs of everyone having the problem and extend it to other laptops models, but I think Lenovo's testers already have it.

However, the fact that some strokes are missing, and the most are the FIRST strokes when we touch the keyboard (when the queue is empty), make me thinking it is a keyboard sampling problem or another generic controller's clock problem. An ipothesis could be that some interference makes the clock instable or less "square" as happends when some parassite effects produce distortions on the wave, or, simply it has too much noise added. In this case a re-engineering of the motherboard/internal components/packaging is required.

 

Whetever the problem is, I really hope that a firmware update can resolve the problem....

 

 

heartsg
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Posts: 41
Registered: ‎10-10-2017
Location: SG
Views: 411
Message 269 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

@morozsm

 

The key-combination mis-registering problem shouldn't be the X1E Gen2 problem. Because I also own an X1C bought 4 years ago.

 

That X1C also has the same key combination misses as X1E but it won't lose keystokes as X1E.

 

 

megac00l
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎01-18-2020
Location: RS
Views: 303
Message 270 of 507

Re: X1 Extreme Gen 2 missing keystrokes

Latest BIOS, the problem with missing keystrokes present in Windows and in Linux when using a built-in keyboard. Everything works just fine on external keyboards.

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