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Roman79
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Posts: 71
Registered: ‎07-28-2017
Location: DE
Views: 878
Message 31 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

10 bit is always the minimum for HDR. Thats why the iPhone X is not HDR10/DolybVision certified official. HDR offers a wider color garmut, so 10bit is a must. And 1000 Nits in Notebooks is possible, there is the HP Elitebook from last year, this gives over 700 nits, so 1000 nits should be possible. But the brightness is not so important, colordepth is more important. And 8bit Colordepth is no HDR, no matter how Lenovo or others are seeing it. Its just no HDR with only 8bit. (More Colors are one of the benefits from HDR technique)

jefferai
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Location: US
Views: 866
Message 32 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Yeah, the Dolby Vision white paper is pretty clear on the 12-bit part. Most of the iPhones (other than the X) that advertise Dolby Vision support are faking it in software. If that's what Lenovo had in mind when they advertised HDR and Dolby Vision support, they've done themselves no favors by saying that support would come from a Windows update, because Windows very clearly claims it's SDR.

 

Lenovo's silence here is troubling. Still giving them time to explain, but that won't last forever.

Roman79
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Location: DE
Views: 861
Message 33 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Yeah, i hope iam wrong and Lenovo will updato with Firmware to 10 or 12 bit. Maybe its possible to get some sort of Fake HDR with 8 bit, but then it would really sad if Lenovo this is advertising as HDR. For HDR we need at least 10 bit, or with a HDR Picture you will have banding in color gradients because the display cant show enogh values for banding free gradient.

BrianSu
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Location: GB
Views: 827
Message 34 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

You won't get true HDR anyway because the LCD panel that is used does not support FALD, which is required for HDR. Also remember the minimum brightness for HDR 10 is 1000 nits, which you can't have without FALD. With these 2 technologies the screen would be maybe 10cm thick unless they use OLED Smiley Wink

Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon (6th Gen), ASUS PG27UQ Quantum Dot UHD 4K HDR 144 Hz Monitor
Roman79
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Registered: ‎07-28-2017
Location: DE
Views: 804
Message 35 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Thats why i can buy LCD TV with only 20mm and HDR! Smiley Wink So your 10cm thickness cant be true. As i said, most important is colordepth, banding is not a nice thing.  Yeah i know that HDR10 needs 1000nit, but our Yoga 3 / Carbon 6th is not advertised with HDR10! Smiley Wink

BrianSu
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Views: 799
Message 36 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

10cm was just a joke. There are only 2 options for HDR today. The first being OLED and the second being FALD. The latter will make the display quite thick due to the complexity. You wouldn’t want to use OLED as a monitor as it has several disadvantages. TVs are so much cheaper and easier to make due to many reasons, but you couldn’t do PC stuff on them either due to their input lag, low refresh rates etc. Just looks at how many HDR monitors there are today vs TVs.... HDR monitor tech is still in its infancy.

Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon (6th Gen), ASUS PG27UQ Quantum Dot UHD 4K HDR 144 Hz Monitor
Roman79
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Registered: ‎07-28-2017
Location: DE
Views: 780
Message 37 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Well, i dont know what LCD you are talking about. Atm i have a LCD HDR TV with 4ms Response time (In Gamemode) a brightness of 800 cd/m² and all i want. (Direct LID, Local Dimming etc.) Thickness less than 3 cm. So thats not really a point. 

 

But lets stop this conversation, its very off topic. Back to Topic, and at the moment it seems to be Lenovo is advertising and selling this 2 Modells with wrong features or faking support of this ( hope again iam wrong). Thanks God iam from Germany. If this will come true that the display stays on 8 bit and no real HDR is possible then i can return to dealer and get back the whole value because bought Items has not the features as advertised.

 

But just let us hope that iam wrong and the necessary update will bring the full HDR support including at least 10bit ColorDepth.

BrianSu
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Views: 771
Message 38 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

was referring to the likes of PG27UQ / X27. They're very bulky due to the powerful processors inside. TVs can't do over 60Hz and don't support G-Sync etc.

 

I guess for a laptop display, 60Hz would suffice and no active sync is required as it isn't a gaming laptop.

 

However, it is not possible to achieve local dimming without OLED in such a thin monitor with today's technology. The X1 Carbon is an Ultrabook. Without local dimming there's no point being able to put out 1000 nits, which is HDR 10's requirement. To achieve local dimming like FALD, there needs to be another panel of 100s of white LED backlights behind the LCD's layer. This adds bulk to the laptop. This 'may' be introduced to chunky heavy gaming laptops but not ultrabooks for sure.

 

By the way, where does it say that the X1 Carbon will support HDR 10? I doubt it does. I thought it only supports Dolby Vision. Right now we can't take advantage of DV as there are no Windows 10 applications that support it. Windows 10 supports HDR 10, which is why HDR mode can't be enabled in the display settings. I could be wrong but this is my perception of the situation.

 

And yes there are devices like iPhone 8 and 8+ that fake HDR 10 and DV support. Their screens are normal IPS LCD but the apps will think they support HDR 10 + DV. If you put an iPhone 8 next to iPhone X with the same content, the difference is very clear. What I'm saying is don't be surprised if the early HDR / DV laptops employ similar tricks.

 

Apple also advertised the iPhone 8 / 8+ as having HDR 10 / DV support, not sure if Lenovo is employing a similar move here.

 

Personally, I'll be happy either way because the X1 Carbon is an ultrabook and I don't expect it to perform like a professional monitor. This is a 'much better than nothing' situation; and there are users that have been praising the images on this DV screen. Whatever Lenovo has done, it's definitely helping to make the display as good as it is.

Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon (6th Gen), ASUS PG27UQ Quantum Dot UHD 4K HDR 144 Hz Monitor
jefferai
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Registered: ‎02-28-2018
Location: US
Views: 764
Message 39 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Nobody is saying that the laptop is supposed to support HDR10. It's only advertised as supporting Dolby Vision. However, as has been pointed out several times:

 

1) Dolby Vision requires 12-bit color, but the EDID info says that the panel is 8-bit

 

2) Lenovo's own announcement of the laptop claims that Dolby Vision support will come in a future Windows update -- not Lenovo update, Windows -- and without any further comment or guidance, the only thing we have to go on right now is the fact that with the April 2018 update, which was expected to be the update Lenovo was talking about, Windows doesn't think the display is HDR capable. So any claims that Windows won't advertise it because it only supports HDR10 are problematic because Lenovo's own announcement indicates that we should expect native Windows support.

Roman79
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Posts: 71
Registered: ‎07-28-2017
Location: DE
Views: 760
Message 40 of 261

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

@BrianSu

You still dont get it. First of all LocalDimming is not required for HDR. Local Dimming is for good Blacklevels, and is not related to brightness, so why you are talking about local dimming and Brightness? Total different things. Then, i never spoke about HDR10, you start this. I spoke about generally HDR and DolbyVision (as Advertised from Lenovo). And with 8bit colordepth you will never get a proper HDR image, it will have banding because it cant display enough values in gradients. There are many Panels with native 8bit and FRC (a type of dithering) so that the hostsystem can drive 10bit colordepth. But even this is not supportet from the panel in the Lenovos (with actual Firmware)

 

And, why you are talking about G-Sync, 60 hz.. etc? Again things total difgferent things and not related to HDR. And by the way, TV can do more than 60hz. There are Models with 100 and even 120hz Smiley Wink

 

And Yeah, X1 Yoga and X1 Carbon are Convertibles/Ultrabooks, but i can expect to get what ive paid for and what was advertised, in this case HDR support and full DolbyVision. Thats the point. 

 

@jefferai

The april Update brings HDR support (HDR for Videos in EDGE on Youtube). But its still the "fakeversion" because no (at least) 10bit. I can use HDR stuff on Youtube, but its just converted to SDR Colorrange. Smiley Sad

 

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