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Roman79
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Posts: 63
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Message 81 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

So, i just searched some infos about the iPhone X panel. You are right, no FRC and no 10bit. So no HDR. Even Apple is saying that they downconvert to SDR Colorrange. So its no HDR too and it seems to be you never see real HDR. Yeah, iPhone X do have very good display (OLED) but, if they downconvert to SDR its still a fake HDR. Sure, if you compare Side-Side HDR to SDR on iPhone X you will see a difference, brighter lights and darker shadows, but thats not HDR. You lost some data between this (gradients). Thats why HDR must be driven in at least 10bit from hostsystem so output is giving full range of 1 billion colors. Of course, there are some features which can output this to a 8bit Panel (FRC is one of them). But as long as the hostsystem will output only 8bit to display, you will never even get a nearly HDR image, because the hossystem is output only 8bit too, and at this point you are already limited to 16,7M Colors. This cant be HDR, and the display, can only interpolate informations that it gets from hostsystem. 

 

So, you can turn/see it as you wish, as long windows is driven in 8bit colordepth it cant be HDR. Doenst matter which tool or software you are using. We need 10bit output from Lenovo, if not possible HDR etc. was just a lie and false advertising.

BrianSu
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Message 82 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Ahh OK thanks for the detailed clarification on this. Appreciate it.

Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon (6th Gen), ASUS PG27UQ Quantum Dot UHD 4K HDR 144 Hz Monitor
yfnew
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Message 83 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

"Even Apple is saying that they downconvert to SDR Colorrange."

 

Here is a screenshot of the Specs section of Apple's iPhone X webpage: 

temp.PNG

 

It only says that it's "HDR display". There is no mention of down-sampling or color bit depth. Nowhere on apple.com is saying that iPhone X's HDR is fake. On the Apple support article "Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, or Dolby Vision", it also says "iPhone 8 and newer, iPad Pro (2017), and Apple TV 4K can play HDR10 and Dolby Vision content". 

 

I understand your argument of consuming HDR content vs. creating and editing HDR content, but this has nothing to do with the specs listed and whether it's false-advertising or not. Apple has proven that calling pure 8-bit panel as "HDR display" is allowed, and Lenovo has never mentioned that X1 Yoga's HDR panel is capable of creating and editing HDR contents. 

Roman79
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Message 84 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

No, apple is using 16,7M Colors in iPhone X too, so no HDR. Apple is just "faking" too. Smiley Wink

HDR is using at least 1 Billion Colors, so how will you show 1 Billion Colors with a smooth gradient with only 16.7M Colors? Its not possible.

 

 

voidshatter
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Message 85 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable


@Roman79 wrote:

No, apple is using 16,7M Colors in iPhone X too, so no HDR. Apple is just "faking" too. Smiley Wink

HDR is using at least 1 Billion Colors, so how will you show 1 Billion Colors with a smooth gradient with only 16.7M Colors? Its not possible.

 

 


Dynamic range in photography or videography means the exposure ratio between the brightest recordable detail and the darkest recordable detail. For example, A modern Sony CMOS sensor for still camera can record a dynamic range of 14 stops, i.e. the brightest detail close to blown highlight is 14 stops brighter than the darkest detail close to burried in shadow noise. Luminance information (level) for each pixel (R, G, B, G2) is recorded in a 14-bit RAW file. This means inside the RAW files, each channel at each pixel contains a value between 0 and 16383.

 

When decoding the RAW files and editing it on an 8-bit display panel, Photoshop (or whatever editing software) would translate (downsample) the values from the range [0, 16383] down to the range [0, 255]. Here 0 means the darkest luminance on the display panel, and 255 corresponds the brightest luminance on the display panel. It works in the same way when the editing software outputs a JPEG format picture in 8-bit.

 

It is up to the editor (person) to decide the curve and levels for the picture (i.e. how much highlight details and how much shadow details). That means the 8-bit output (either on-screen or JPEG file) can still contain a scene of 14 stops of dynamic range (i.e. the brightest part is still 14 stops brighter than the darkest shadow detail). It's just that the smoothness of transition of tone will be downsampled from 16384 levels down to 256 levels.

 

So no, you don't have to use a 10-bit or even 12-bit panel to edit an HDR photo. Most human eyes wouldn't even be able to distinguish between 10-bit and 8-bit. Consider this: if you have a 14" display, and from left to right you show a transition from the brightest red (white) to darkest red (black), 8-bit would give you 256 levels while 10-bit would give you 1024 levels. Most human eyes won't even distinguish between 256 levels and 1024 levels because 256 levels is already smooth enough for them. The extra 2 bits just provide extra smoothness for the very minority of people who pursuits the extreme sutlety.

 

For Youtube's HDR videos, they require 10-bit or 12-bit for the uploads. This doesn't necessarily mean the editing software must run on a 10-bit or 12-bit display panel.

 

10bit.jpgExaggerated demonstration of bit difference

bit-depth-gradients.jpgReal levels by bit rate

Roman79
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Message 86 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

I never spoke about HDR photo. HDR Video is something total different. If HDR should be this what Lenovo and Apple is thinking about, explain me why i need a HDR Display? This way Microsoft did bring with the latest Update to use HDR Content in Edge Browser i can do with every Display. So why advertising HDR if nothing is different to normal Displays? O.o

 

For example, since the last Update you can activate and use this HDR Video Content in Edge Browser with old Yoga X1 (2nd Gen). Is not having a HDR Display. If the manufactures can washout HDR Specs this way, then HDR is worth nothing, because there is not really a requirement to reach "this" HDR. 

 

Even if Lenovo will bringt this "Tool" for DolbyVision, its just a software part... so no need for special Display etc. Just a big Joke, if it really will come as expected.

voidshatter
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Message 87 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable


@Roman79 wrote:

I never spoke about HDR photo. HDR Video is something total different. If HDR should be this what Lenovo and Apple is thinking about, explain me why i need a HDR Display? This way Microsoft did bring with the latest Update to use HDR Content in Edge Browser i can do with every Display. So why advertising HDR if nothing is different to normal Displays? O.o

 

For example, since the last Update you can activate and use this HDR Video Content in Edge Browser with old Yoga X1 (2nd Gen). Is not having a HDR Display. If the manufactures can washout HDR Specs this way, then HDR is worth nothing, because there is not really a requirement to reach "this" HDR. 

 

Even if Lenovo will bringt this "Tool" for DolbyVision, its just a software part... so no need for special Display etc. Just a big Joke, if it really will come as expected.


While editing HDR photo with an 8-bit display panel I can still write 16-bit or even 32-bit output files to the hard drive. For editing HDR video I don't believe that you need a 12-bit display panel to write 12-bit output files to the hard drive.

Roman79
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Message 88 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Thats correct, but it makes no sense. I can edit a 32bit Photo even in 6bit. But i dont see the correct result because many colors or colorvalues are just not visible because the display cant show them. Its the same with editing a 9.1 Soundtrack on a system with monospeaker. You can edit it, sure, but you never get the correct result. Smiley Happy

voidshatter
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Message 89 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

True, and point taken.

 

It's just that most people won't even be able to distinguish between 8-bit (256 levels) and 10-bit (1024 levels) for color brightness. Not even the professional editors (people) can always be that subtle with their eyes. Yes, on a large TV like 65", you may see banding for 256 levels for a large area of solid color with little texture (like the blue sky); but for a 14" laptop it's probably not easy to see banding for 256 levels.

 

This reminds me the bitrate wars of audio formats in Hi-Fi. Yes Hi-Fi manufacturers claim they have xx bits and thus offer better audio quality, but how many people can actually hear the difference?

Roman79
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Message 90 of 241

Re: X1 Yoga 3rd gen HDR display not HDR capable

Well, with fine gradients i can see banding in 8bit even on 13" Display. But i think it does not matter if someone see it or not, i think we can expect that what we paid for and what was and is advertised.

 

But maybe iam totally wrong and Lenovo brings an update which allows to set 10bit colordepth in Windows. 

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