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11 Posts

07-25-2011

Dallas. TX

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 9:15 AM

Hello all, been reading and sifting 'throttlegate' for a more than an hour now and pretty much covered the whole forum.
To say that this community is alive and kicking is an understatement.


Well I am planning to buy an X220 and in an i7 model because I want powered USB 3.0, faster CPU and no issues with express slot but I am sad to hear about the throtting issue.

 

I am glad to see that many of the forum members are constructive and especially appreciate the helpful updates from Ken & JameZ and other Lenovo Staff.


But anyway more importantly, I thought to point out that I did a check on Youtube, you know that little site where people rarely go sometimes to see videos, and to my alarm, NO videos on the X220 throttling problem! :smileysurprised:

Surely a kind samaritan could put together a short video with various testing s/w &/ games causing the CPU/GPU throttle issue to surface for all to see.:smileywink:

 

I feel it will be educational for buyers and owners alike but maybe even a small impetus to help Lenovo understand how real the issue is (I have seen scores of websites talking about it already and as a potential customer already dissuaded).

 

Lastly if Lenovo staff would PM or mention here in the forum, I would move to suggest that potential new buyers, especially those shelling for the higher end would be allowed to choose the 90W non-slim adapter instead of the 65W or both for now, I fail to see how it will create problems for end-users.

  If anyone would like to point out why this would be a bad idea, I'd certainly like to know.  

 

I have serious choices to make with my money and could have gone with other systems that offer more like the Toshiba Satellite e305 (USB 3.0 with i5 choices, streaming HD and more) or VAIOS but want to go with Lenovo. 

A small adapter replacement for the time being should not be an issue I hope.


Thanks for listening and hope to see some YOUTUBE videos online SOON !



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2029 Posts

12-02-2007

Australia

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 9:59 AM
------------------------------
I don't work for Lenovo
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63 Posts

06-20-2011

UK

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 11:19 AM

@bender957
I 100% agree with you. There were actually multiple videos on youtube about the throttling, whining fan, display bleeding, and display image retention problems of the X220. Now I cannot even find one.

I can't seem to see whether these issues have been successfully addressed. It would be great if somebody from Lenovo would summarize it how they fixed those.

1) Throttling - I understand that bios 1.19 fixes it. (?) Is this the case? One can always buy the 90W PSU.
2) Fan noise - there are different reports of success with the above bios. What is the status now?
3) IPS Display image retention problem - I couldn't find any solution yet. I read that somewhere that engineers "will tell a trick/solution". I am really concerned about this one as the premium display cannot be fixed.
4) Baklit bleeding - many laptops have some but it should be moderate with the IPS sceen. I saw terrible videos and not sure this was a batch issue or all of them have it.

I do not think that bender957 violated any forum rules by pointing out that anything that is critical of Lenovo is removed from the thread even youtube videos links.

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25 Posts

07-20-2011

Canada

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 21:42 PM

I've read folks using kill-a-watt on other laptops and when they decrease screen brightness the wattage is reduced, sometimes by 10+ watts!  It's not definitive but it gives you an idea.  Under loaded CPU+GPU, it must be maxing at 65watts but has anyone tested it?  Also testing a 90 Watt AC adapter just to see how much additional wattage over 65 is being drawn during load.

 

 

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8095 Posts

11-19-2007

United States of America

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 21:50 PM

der72,

 

This thread is focused on the throttling discussion, so let's stick to that topic rather than dragging in a laundry list of  other X220 issues from other threads.   Because you posted a reasonable set of questions, I'll reply here and then trust that the discussion will continue with regard to throttling.

 

1) There are actually two throttling scenarios.  One occurs when the CPU and GPU are both stressed and the system is running on the 65 watt adapter.   BIOS 48 and 49 (8DET49WW / 1.19) should have resolved the other scenario in which the system could get stuck, throttled at 800mhz under some conditions.

 

2) We are continuing to work on the fan.  We had an initial high speed mode issue and a cycling issue.   The status is that a new BIOS just came out on 7/22/11 and we are monitoring the results from those that have applied it.  For the T520, X1 that have had similar BIOS updates, customers have reported the whine is greatly reduced, along with cycling.  Results for X220 don't seem as promising based on that thread.

 

3) IPS - there is a tip pending release which explains IPS vs TN functionality of the panel and why image persistence can occur.   Lenovo engineering believes this normal functionality for this panel.

 

4) Backlight bleed - I have seen a few examples reported in the forum and engineering is evaluating examples from the field.

 

5) mSATA - should be enabled via this BIOS update as well.  Not mentioned in your list, but I know it has been a prominent discussion point as well...

 

digitaltrix, bender957, et all,

 

I'd really like to avoid ongoing struggles and debates over censorship and I'm asking for your help.  We aren't trying to alienate or unduly limit / censor people here, but we are trying to keep the forum operating in a constructive fashion.  

 

If you want to make a video that more clearly demonstrates an issue and the real world conditions under which it occurs so that others can better understand it, then great - that's helpful.   The point of the forum is to have discussion to share knowledge, help each other out on an individual basis, and in the case where we see common symptoms being reported, for Lenovo to get involved and work to address them.   

 

We are doing that.   Could we move faster?  Perhaps.  But, sometimes things are easier said than done and there is a perception that if the noise / pain level gets turned up that things will move faster.  The squeaky wheel theory as it were.

 

I can understand that if everyone were being ignored, but we aren't ignoring your feedback, we are actively working these issues.

 

If you have individual concerns - please send me a PM.

 

Thanks for your support and continued constructive participation here !

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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63 Posts

06-20-2011

UK

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 22:14 PM

Mark,

 

Very good and detailed update. Thanks.

 

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11 Posts

07-25-2011

Dallas. TX

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 22:37 PM

Mark,

I want to thank you as a potential customer and first time Thinkpad buyer for articulating so well your thoughts on this matter and for further addressing & acknowledging the issues so transparently for all of us.

I certainly didn't mean to provoke or exploit the issue and anger around it, rather I see videos as one more source to elucidate the problems for those of us who are reading different reports and wondering if this is as common as it seems to be and likewise for Lenovo staff too, although I'm sure Lenovo is clear on this as well by now as the forum peaks 500 messages.


In any case, I am still buying the X220, hopefully in the i7 format and I look forward to sharing and learning more from the community and from you and other helpful Lenovo staff.

 

I do have a concern about  the 90W adapter replacement for which I will PM you as I haven't yet bought my system and could do fine with a 90 instead of 65, only there is no way to configure this.  I hope you can help me on the matter


Thanks once again and let's hope we can keep it clean and non-squeaky around here

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8095 Posts

11-19-2007

United States of America

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-25, 22:59 PM

digitaltrix,

 

Thanks for that as well !   I'll look for your PM.

 

As it stands, the system ships with the 65 watt adapter and customers can purchase the 90 watt as an upgrade.  Interesting suggestion - if the AC adapter were configure to order component when building the system, and that the 90 watt was added to the config as a option like upgrading memory, then perhaps it could be offered at a slight premium vs the 65 watt and have it ship with the 90 watt by choice instead of having to pay for the whole 90 watt and winding up with 2 adapters as it is today.

 

That's an interesting idea and one I'll suggest to the appropriate team to see if it is possible.  

 

Upstream there was some discussion on thermals.  So far as I know thermals aren't the reason for the throttling we are seeing - these are a power budget issue.    Thermals can cause throttling though and it is always possible that a system could have an issue causing it to run hot.  On a single example basis,  I would advise those customers to check their power manager, update BIOS, clean the fan (if it has age on it), and then contact service.

 

I like your spirit on videos and pictures.   Often, some of the issues are actually a low % occurance, but enough that we can have 5, 10, 50 people in the forum talking about it and in those instances we can sometimes have trouble recreating the issue with systems that we have on hand, and so having some pics or a video really helps to demonstrate the issue.   On balance, if people only make videos about your products when there are issues, it can give a distorted view of the product to potential buyers.

 

A little squeaking is good.  It keeps everyone honest and let's us know you care.  

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

 

 

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769 Posts

08-07-2010

United States of America

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-26, 0:16 AM

I've now seen CPU throttling under normal (not synthetic) heavy CPU load and without heavy GPU load that's so severe that I've changed my position on this issue. See video here. The X220 was running the latest 1.19 BIOS on the standard 65W AC Adapter with a fully charged 9-cell battery installed. It was under normal (not synthetic) heavy compute load on all 4 threads on both cores, but without any significant GPU load. Note how Core Speed jumps back and forth between 800 MHz and 3200 MHz. I could accept some modest degradation, but these frequent big jumps all the way down to 800 MHz are unacceptable.

John   [tips]   ThinkPad T470p:
Win8.1Pro64 | i7-7820HQ | 32GB | 512GB SSD | WQHD | AC | BT | Cam | FR
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21115 Posts

12-20-2008

Australia, Melbourne

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Re: X220 cpu throttling problem

2011-07-26, 0:56 AM
In Australia, the option to choose 65 watt versus 90 watt (the latter is 15 dollars more) was available for couple of years for different machines.
Regards,

Jin Li

May this year, be the year of 'DO'!

I am a volunteer, and not a paid staff of Lenovo or Microsoft
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