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SuperMod
Posts: 5,698
Registered: ‎11-23-2007
Location: US
Message 31 of 45 (7,362 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available


Hellbore wrote:

Umm yeah, in fact I first learned about this issue from a post by erik on the other forum Smiley Very Happy

hilarious.   that makes two of us. Smiley Very Happy

ThinkStation P700 · C20      ThinkPad P40 · 600

What's DOS?
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎04-24-2008
Location: CROATIA
Message 32 of 45 (7,294 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

Yes they did.

When you install 4GB and BIOS states that you did, but during the POST it counts only 3072MB and your 64bit OS (suse, ubuntu, vista - all are 64bit versions) are able, accordingly, to see/use only 3072MB than you can safely say that LENOVO mislead customers.

You can even say, and is closer to truth, that they LIED.
I cannot belive that they do not test products against different OS's with different memory setups.

They knew, at the time of writting specification, that you can NEVER use 4GB of memory in T60p (2007 model) but still worte that you could. Under "using 4GB" I do not mean that my notebook boots after I installed 4GB.
What's DOS?
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎11-11-2008
Location: SC
Message 33 of 45 (6,398 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

[ Edited ]

Anyone who can raise 2 to the 32nd power knows that a 32 bit machine can address up to 4,294,967,295 bytes of memory. (2^32 - 1).  Thus, if a 32 bit machine can't access a full 4GB of memory it is because external, artificial limitations have been placed upon it.  I have read and think it is likely true that an external chipset is causing the 3GB limitation problem in the T60.  But don't go around telling people that 32 bit machines cannot access 4GB of memory in general because it is trivial to show that they can.

 

FYI, a 64 bit machine can access up to (2^64 - 1) bytes, which is 18 EB (Exabytes), or approximately 18.4 quintillion bytes.  With 64 bit machines, there's a LOT of room at the top.

Message Edited by hines1957 on 11-11-2008 05:42 AM
What's DOS?
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎12-04-2008
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Message 34 of 45 (6,253 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

I don't understand all this 32bit nonsense. Workarounds to this limits are there for many years. If not, please explain me why Windows 2000 EE or W 2003 EE and others could manage 8Gb, 16Gb on Data Center edition?

 

It's called AWE. It's there. The real limitation of 4b is for a single process but the OS could manage more memory.

 

I heard that Dell with the Same chipset reported 3.5 Gb of usable memory. Remember all the upper memory reserved for buffers of video, interfaces, etc,etc,etc...

 

The fault it's from Lenovo.

 

Juan.

 

SuperMod
Posts: 5,698
Registered: ‎11-23-2007
Location: US
Message 35 of 45 (6,248 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available


jjbreuer wrote:

I don't understand all this 32bit nonsense. Workarounds to this limits are there for many years. If not, please explain me why Windows 2000 EE or W 2003 EE and others could manage 8Gb, 16Gb on Data Center edition?

 

It's called AWE. It's there. The real limitation of 4b is for a single process but the OS could manage more memory.

 

I heard that Dell with the Same chipset reported 3.5 Gb of usable memory. Remember all the upper memory reserved for buffers of video, interfaces, etc,etc,etc...

 

The fault it's from Lenovo.

 

Juan.


this is a limitation of non-server versions of microsoft windows and the limitations of certain intel chipsets.   windows server 2003 x86 and 2008 x86 can both address 4GB in a capable thinkpad (X61/T61 and newer with PM965/GM965 chipsets).   the X60/T60 series can only address 3GB maximum due to intel's chipset limitations.   apple had the same limitation in their macbooks using the PM945/GM945 chipsets.

 

if you want to make claims otherwise then i would encorage you to provide definitive evidence backing up your statement for the benefit of yourself and others.

 

thank you for your input.

ThinkStation P700 · C20      ThinkPad P40 · 600

Fanfold Paper
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Registered: ‎06-18-2009
Location: East Hampton, NY
Message 36 of 45 (4,966 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

 I think a lot of people get aggravated with this subject not only because they feel like IBM/Lenovo mislead them but because something seems fishy... They are right. As each excuse was addressed and overcome a new excuse always pops up.

The 4GB but only 3GB problem is a Lenovo/IBM problem.

The first excuse was that 4GB was not available because of 32 bit operating systems. Once people start using 64 it operating systems the blame shifted to a "physical limitation" of the Intel 945PM chip-set. NOT TRUE. 

I the Intel chip-set supports 4GB of RAM. That very same chip-set is used in several Dell laptops that have no problem addressing all 4GB. The problem is with the BIOS/embedded controller firmware.

Most people have not bothered to thoroughly research the problem and have excepted simple diversion answers.

 

A few people have successfully re flashed their BIOS using OpenBIOS or similar tools and subsequently are able to address all 4GB of RAM with a 64 bit OS (usually a Linux distro).

 

I would be happy to provide links to all supporting documentation if anyone is still interested in this topic.

 

Its not because of your OS (provided it is 64 bit)

Its not a limitation of your chip-set

Its IBM/Lenovo, they screwed up.

 

BTW, I realize this is my first post but I am not a troll. I Use a T6o myself and it is by far the best laptop I have ever owned.

T60
Fedora 11
Microsoft MVP Contributor
Posts: 21,009
Registered: ‎12-19-2008
Location: Australia, Melbourne
Message 37 of 45 (4,956 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

Actually, GM945 bios can address the 4 gig of ram, if it doesn't take account for any hardware device memory allocation, but if that was done, many hardware devices may not work properly and the laptop will be unstable for certain hardware configuration. This is why all the HP and Dell machines posters say that while you can install 4 gig of ram, only 3 gig of ram or 3.25 gig will be accessable by the OS.

 

The problem is that you got to build a laptop that is suitable for all situation, with Thinkpads people doesn't expect absolute speed (well maybe if they buy the top of the line), but they do expect ultimate stability and reliability.... 

 

The performance difference between 3 gig and 4 gig is not that much, but it would be a big difference if many people start get BSOD for installing certain hardware device.

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=239677

 

look for the last comment in that post.  

Regards,

Jin Li

May this year, be the year of 'DO'!

I am a volunteer, and not a paid staff of Lenovo or Microsoft
Microsoft MVP Contributor
Posts: 21,009
Registered: ‎12-19-2008
Location: Australia, Melbourne
Message 38 of 45 (4,951 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

http://blog.venthur.de/2007/05/14/4gb-ram-on-a-t60/

 

have a read of the post, there were two conflicting reports  whether M1710 addresses all 4 gig of ram.

 

Also the amount of ram addressable depends on the hardware configuration..... Lenovo cut out at the 3 gig limit most likely for hardware/software stability issue. 

 

Sure, you may get maybe around 500 mb of extra ram for use by the OS, but there could be issues of stability.... stability or little bit more performance which one do you think Lenovo will choose....

 

Also, M1710 is purely for games like Alienware same design concept.... so maybe it is worthwhile to sacrifice a bit of stability to get the ultimate performance.... 

 

This is the exact same issue with F1 cars with the same engine, you can either choose to set the rev limiter higher to get more power output, or you can set the limiter to slightly lower to preserve engine longevity..... Thinkpad are not designed to chase pure performance, but rather stability and longevity.... 

 

Finally, i think Lenovo did mention that maximum of 3 gigs are usable in their promotional info, so you really shouldn't be anyway surprised that the T60 can't use more than 3 gigs. 

 

Regards,

Jin Li

May this year, be the year of 'DO'!

I am a volunteer, and not a paid staff of Lenovo or Microsoft
Fanfold Paper
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎06-18-2009
Location: East Hampton, NY
Message 39 of 45 (4,946 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

[ Edited ]

Why wouldn't I be surprised? My BIOS reported, OS addressed and was stable with 1GB. My BIOS reported, OS addressed and was stable with 2GB....

Why with 4GB of RAM does the machine now have to allocate the same amount of memory that my entire system was stable with to peripherals?

Laptops with 512 MB of RAM do just fine not being able to allocate 1GB of RAM to lets say... a video card..

 

This issue has nothing to do with hardware configuration, physical limits of motherboard or PAE. IBM/Lenovo didnt expect people to be installing that much memory or be using 64 bit OS. A few years ago that much memory was absurdly expensive and Vista wich was still in devlopement was 32 bit anyway. It was a non-issue.

 

I will later post some links to blogs/forums where the issue is discussed in great depth (not arguing) and where some people have overcome the 3GB boundry. Its artificial, with the proper firmware, 4GB can be addressed.

 

http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/945pm/index.htm

 

I will post more links later

 

I would also like to reinforce that I did not revive this post for the sake of arguing, I did it because there are smart people here and I thought it would be helpful to those with T60/61 laptops to look into. I lack the technical expertise to even attempt to reflash may BIOS. 

 

The other benefit is a much faster Boot time using OpenBIOS

Message Edited by seanb on 06-18-2009 02:19 PM
Message Edited by seanb on 06-18-2009 02:19 PM
T60
Fedora 11
Microsoft MVP Contributor
Posts: 21,009
Registered: ‎12-19-2008
Location: Australia, Melbourne
Message 40 of 45 (4,939 Views)

Re: T60p 4gb but 3 gb available

did you read the online spec for the T60p, nowhere does it state that it can use 4 gig, it always say 3 gigs..... 

 

You do understand that the 64 bit Win XP pro was released in the end of 2004.... So Lenovo did NOT expect people to use that much ram..... how did you come to that conclusion.........  so did Lenovo thought people could afford a 2500 USD laptop but can't afford to spend that much on ram..... that is absurd.. 

 

T61 laptop can address 8 gigs of ram.... so please

Regards,

Jin Li

May this year, be the year of 'DO'!

I am a volunteer, and not a paid staff of Lenovo or Microsoft